Preparing for your (HASS) Viva

In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Dr. Bice Maiguashca, Associate Professor in Politics about preparing for your viva in HASS subjects.

This is the second in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

 

Podcast Transcript

 

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Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

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and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens, this is the second episode in a series where our guest host,

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Dr. Edward Mills, talks to academics and examiners all about the viva process.

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In this episode, Edward is talking to Bice Maiguashca

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who is an associate professor in the politics department at the University of Exeter, giving her experience and advice as an examiner,

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as a supervisor,

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and reiterating some of the really excellent advice and support she's given to our PGRs over the years through our Preparing for your viva workshops.

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So it's over to you Ed. hello. Today I am speaking with Bice Maiguashca, who is a professor in the politics department,

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about her experiences as an internal and external and also as a non examining independent chair.

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OK, so could you start just by saying a little bit about yourself, please?

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Sure. I'm an associate professor in the politics department and my research, very broadly speaking,

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is on the politics of resistance and more specifically on left politics.

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So left social movements as well as left politics in Britain.

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And I tend to approach the subject from a feminist perspective. So that's my academic sort of area of expertise.

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And so what can I ask? What's your experience as an examiner then of PhD thesis?

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I have both taken on both roles.

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Well, actually all three roles.

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I have been the supervisor, a supervisor to ten students, 10 PhD students, and I have been both internal examiners and external examiners.

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And in addition, I've also played the role of independent chair on numerous occasions.

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I suppose the first thing to ask is a question that I've asked everybody I've spoken to thus far,

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which is when you're examining a PhD thesis as an internal and external examiner,

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what do you do when you when you get a thesis in front of you for the first time?

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Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing you do is you decide when you're going to at what point you're going to

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read it and you want to make sure when you do that you have several hours ahead of you.

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In other words, at least in my experience, in my view, you can't read a thesis

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or at least I can't read the thesis over several days in small chunks.

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So I pick up the thesis and I make sure that I have three to four or five hours to focus on it, to make myself comfortable with something.

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And I read the introduction and the conclusion, and this may be very individual,

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idiosyncratic thing to do, but for me, I need to have a general map of the thesis before I dive in

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So I want to have a sense of what the story line is.

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In other words, a thesis for me and for no academic. is never read sort of as a myth, as a mystery novel, if you like,

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where the the the the plot line emerges at the end or the punch line emerges at the end.

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We like to know what's going on, what the aims of the thesis are, what the argument is going to be foregrounded at the beginning.

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So I read the introduction. I then read the conclusion. So I have a sense of the both, if you like, the bookends of the thesis.

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I have an overall map of the thesis in my mind, and then I dive into Chapter one,

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start looking for story line as well as the evidence which is going to sustain it.

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Reading the introduction, the conclusion of the thesis. Yes, some examiners may do that.

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Some some may not. But it's interesting to hear you talk about the the storyline of a thesis.

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Could you say a bit more about what you mean by the story line?

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Yeah, OK, so I think it's very important that the introduction of a thesis does four things and they all add up.

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If you like the story line in some sense of the thesis, the first thing that the introduction needs to do,

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in my view, is establish the puzzle or the problem or the research question that the student is trying to tackle.

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So what is the thesis about and what questions is it trying to answer?

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The second aspect, if you like, of this storyline has to do with the answer to that question.

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In other words, what is the argument? Of the PhD

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What is the thesis? That the student is putting forward.

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So that's the second bit, the third part of the storyline is why that question needs to be answered in academic terms.

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What is important about that question? Another way of putting this part of the storyline is to call it the rationale of the thesis.

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What is the rationale of the thesis? And you can have two types of rationale.

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You can have an academic rationale. In other words, there is a gap in the literature or perhaps there is a gap in the literature.

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But this is an important question and hasn't been studied. And the second form of rationale that might be relevant, particularly politics students,

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perhaps to others, is that there may be a political or social rationale for doing the thesis.

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In other words, it's tackling a particularly important political or social problem that begs to be solved.

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And the fourth thing that I think a reader needs to find in the introduction is an explanation of how they proceeded to do the research.

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In other words, what's otherwise called the methodology of the thesis.

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So just to recap, in the introduction of the thesis, the reader is looking for four things.

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What is the puzzle? What is the argument of the thesis?

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Why does the puzzle and argument matter? In other words, contribution to knowledge?

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And finally, how has the student undertaken this research and why have they made the choices that they have in terms of methodology?

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Those four pillars hold up thesis in many respects and need to be foregrounded in the introduction and then perhaps revisited in the conclusion.

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I don't know how you wrote your introduction, but does that sound familiar to you?

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That sounds very familiar, particularly given the advice that a lot of people are given to do their introduction last.

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Right. OK, certainly that might sound slightly odd in the.

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Does that sound odd? This this may or may not make it into the final cut? I think I've heard people say it before, but I don't think it's realistic.

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So what I would say is that your the introduction of all the chapters in your thesis is the one that perhaps is rewritten and evolves the most.

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In other words, I think one can't write it at the end.

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One has to write it at the beginning because it's usually provides the student with a roadmap of what they intend to do.

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And I always get my students to turn their research proposals or proposals into some form of introduction.

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As they expand on the puzzle, they expand on the rationale and they expand on the methodology,

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even if they're not entirely sure about the argument itself,

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because they still have to do the research, if you understand what I mean, and they then go back and revisit the introduction as they move forward.

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So I think there are multiple iterations of an introduction.

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Go back to it at the end of the thesis when you finish the whole draft and yes, indeed, one then goes and edits it, the final draft, so to speak.

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At the end of the writing of your thesis, you need a copy, if you like,

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a draft of the introduction at the beginning as well to give you focus and direction.

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Yeah, I think that's very fair. Actually, a lot of my introduction was written in the first year of the thesis but was then quite substantially revised.

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Once the argument had become clearer.

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I suppose to an extent the kind of solution part of your four stage, your four pillars might be the bit that needs to be rewritten most.

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But that's a that's a very good point, actually. Thank you. What contact do the internal and external examiners have before the viva?

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And what do they what do they have to produce before the viva starts?

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So the internal and external normally contact each other after they've read the thesis.

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In fact, it's the been the internal job to organise the time and place of the vivaand to agree that with the external and the student,

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then the internal and external, each separately without consulting with each other.

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Write What's called a preliminary report in that preliminary report, they normally start off by summarising what they think the PhD is trying to do.

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So their understanding of what the aims of these are, the rationale and the methodology.

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So that's normally the first couple of paragraphs of the preliminary report.

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That's why it's so important in your introduction, you make sure that those key aspects of the thesis are clear.

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Then they go on to assess each one of them in some detail.

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In other words, they they offer their evaluation of how well the student has done each and then they determine a preliminary outcome.

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In other words, they recommend minor revisions or major revisions or a pass, an unconditional pass.

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Those preliminary reports are then exchanged prior to the viva, usually some days before.

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And so so that each can reflect on the views of the other.

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Then they usually meet wherever the is taking place, often over lunch prior to the viva or or over coffee.

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They discuss their agreements and disagreements before they go in to the viva

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So when you when the student enters into the room, internal and external have already met each other.

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They've already had a substantive discussion about the thesis and about their views.

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It will always be some differences and they will have come to.

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An initial view on the thesis and its quality and the recommendation they would like to make at the end of the two or three hour,

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viva students will be asked to sit out to the outside and the internal and external will deliberate once again and see whether,

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in fact, their view still stands or whether, in fact, they want to shift that view based on viva

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That's why the viva does matter.

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So jumping forward slightly, then let's just imagine you sat down with your cup of tea on the thesis, which is a lovely image, by the way.

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What would you advise a student to be to be doing in that time, this kind of awkward 70 days?

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I mean, it can be it can be a significant amount of time between the Viva and the submission and viva rather

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So what would you how would you recommend a student spend that time?

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Well, I think you normally have about, am I right, three months between submission and the actual viva.

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That was certainly the case for me. I think it can be slightly more than that.

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But also, yes, it can be more.

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But regardless of how long you have, I think the first thing you should do is actually take a rest.

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You probably will working very intensely on your project until submission point, and you're probably saturated by it.

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And I think I say that you should take a rest, not just because you should take care of yourself and for well-being reasons,

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but also because while you're taking a rest, you are gaining critical distance from your thesis.

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And I think that's very important. Before you go into the viva that you develop some critical distance from it so that when you return to the thesis,

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which you must do in order to prepare for the viva, which is worth doing.

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You know, it's not that you've forgotten what you've written, but that you can somehow see it through clearer,

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more self-critical eyes, and I think that perspective is crucial.

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So after you've taken perhaps two or three weeks off, perhaps even a month, if you can,

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it could involve a holiday, but it also could involve just doing other work.

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What you want to do is turn your mind away from the project, think about other things,

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and then come back to it afresh and you will see it with different eyes.

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And that experience of coming back to your project after leaving it for a little while is both exhilarating and exciting.

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Also a little scary and sometimes a little frustrating because you, of course,

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reread it and realise the strength of the thesis as well as its limitations.

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But I think that's very important that you go into a knowing its strengths because you might even be asked this question by a cheeky external.

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What are the strengths of the thesis and what do you think the limitations of your work are?

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So once you've, if you like, undertaken the moves to put you in that perspective or to acquire that perspective,

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and you need to prepare to answer four questions, there is no way you're going to have a viva without being asked all four of these questions.

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And of course, they're not going to be surprising because they pertain to the four pillars, if you like, of the the storyline of the.

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The first question you're going to be asked, and sometimes it comes up at the very beginning of your viva,

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is your research question, your puzzle, your problem?

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They may ask they may ask the question in different ways. Why did you choose this topic?

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What brought you to this question? Why did you think it was so important?

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But they will ask you to explain your puzzle.

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In other words, the aims of your thesis. Second of all, they will ask you.

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What your argument is. So, in fact, I have been in the viva once where I think the external I wouldn't have done it this way,

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but the external the first question she asked was, so tell me in two sentences what your thesis is.

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But you need to practise articulating the argument of your thesis in one or two sentences just in case you're put on the spot.

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Third, you're going to be asked questions around the rationale of the thesis,

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why you thought it was an important project to pursue in academic terms, and what do you think the contribution to knowledge is?

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And finally, they're going to ask you about how you did your research.

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So in other words, your methodology, the entire viva, will be structured around those four broad questions.

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And depending on your answers, you will get subsequent questions pushing you to illuminate the work that you've done.

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So I would prepare for the viva in the interim,

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I would not believe what I've heard from some students and some colleagues that the viva doesn't really matter.

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Some people would argue that in the end, what really matters is the thesis itself.

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In other words, what you've written, that is what's being tested and that what you actually say in the viva is neither here nor there,

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apart from the fact that one of the purposes, one of the functions of Avivah is to actually establish that you're the author of the.

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So that's that's that's one function.

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But I would argue that preparing for the viva is incredibly important for the outcome in two ways, one, emotionally and psychologically.

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In other words, you're more likely to have a good experience in the viva.

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In other words, a good conversation with your internal and external,

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if you know your thesis well and you're prepared to answer questions around those four pillars.

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And I think, second of all, if by any chance there is a difference of opinion between the internal and external about what the outcome should be,

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let's say minor revision versus major revision, your answers to those four very broad questions.

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can help them decide whether it's going to be minor or major.

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So I strongly advise students to prepare for the viva both so that they have fun and also so that the outcome is as good as it can be.

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There was one term that you used there, which I think a lot of people will have heard many,

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many times, but I think it might be worth spending them to unpick if that's OK.

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It's the idea of the Viva as a conversation,

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which I think is connected to what you were saying earlier about how depending on the answers you give to certain questions,

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the the examiners can go down different roads.

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So when you think of a presumably a good viva as a good conversation, what do you what do you mean by that?

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How is it different from, say, an interview, for example?

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I think conversation or dialogue as a way of describing the thesis as well as viva is, is a helpful way of thinking about the whole process.

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So let me start by saying that in many respects, a thesis or a PhD

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Is in fact, the product of a conversation, so in the rationale of your of your thesis,

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where you explain why you pursued this particular puzzle, you will need to lay out an academic academic conversation about your topic.

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It's often called the literature review.

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So the thesis itself represents a conversation between a group of academics who may agree or disagree with each other and yourself, in other words,

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when you write a thesis as a student, you are intervening or you're seeking to intervene in a dialogue amongst experts about the subject.

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When you do your Viva. Then you have a second type of conversation, you have a conversation with two experts in the field.

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About the conversation you've had in your thesis. So in other words, with your with your viva

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your internal and external are interested not so much in determining whether they agree with your

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answers or not or whether they understand how you've come to them and why you've come to them.

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Which comes itself to another point, which I think you may have raised in the discussion that I was actually in your experience.

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Is it possible to pass a viva, even if you examine it, totally disagree with your conclusions?

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I think that depends on what one means by disagree with one's conclusions.

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I'm speculating here. I'm not in the sciences, but I'm wondering whether perhaps in the sciences that may not be possible.

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In other words, if they think that you've done i don't know you've performed

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like the formulas incorrectly or misunderstood your formulas or use the wrong ones and therefore have the wrong outcomes,

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it's quite possible that perhaps you don't pass. I think in the social sciences, there's it can be a matter of interpretation.

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So in the social sciences, what they will be checking and what I would check for is the level of scholarship.

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Involved in the thesis.

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In other words, has this student engaged with the right, with the relevant literature on the subject, or have they missed certain literature?

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Do they show a good grasp of the conceptual and empirical material that's out there?

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And have they managed to mobilise evidence to sustain the argument that they're making?

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If they do all of that, and I still disagree perhaps with either the direction they've taken or,

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as you put it, the outcomes, then yes, yes, they will still pass.

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I've had a number of students who have mobilised or deployed theoretical perspectives that I don't find particularly interesting and or helpful.

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And a brilliant thesis can be written using both theoretical perspectives,

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even if I'm perhaps not enamoured with them because I think there are problems.

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So I might raise those problems in the viva to make sure they understand the limits of that perspective.

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But I'm going to be very happy passing them if they have done a good job mobilising evidence

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for their case and showing a good understanding of the theoretical perspective and its limits.

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So thank you for that.

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I think that's a really good clarification of a point that a lot of people will have heard but may not have been able to express in detail.

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So let's jump forward now to the Viva itself. I mean, with everything we've spoken about, this has been Viva to some degree, but.

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As an examiner, whether an internal or external.

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What frustrates you in a viva, I think some viva I've really enjoyed some this and I found other viva is very difficult to get through.

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I think one of the things that students should keep in mind, as I said earlier, is that viva is a dialogue.

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It's a dialogue between three people, sometimes four, depending on whether you have two externals and one internal or just one external, one internal.

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And I think students should keep in mind that although it's intimate and that there are only three of you in a room or perhaps four,

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but somehow externals and internals are people, too,

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and that they may also come to the viva with their own baggage and in fact, may feel a little bit nervous.

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In other words, it's a performance and the student is performing, but so is the internal and so the external,

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especially if there's an internal chair and internal chair presence as well.

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And so what one wants in the performance of the viva is everyone to listen to each other,

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to be respectful and polite with each other and to enjoy it.

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So one of the things that frustrates me, if you like, is and I realise it can't be helped,

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is that if a student is so nervous that they can't engage in that dialogue.

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In other words, if they haven't prepared and therefore thrown by questions about what their puzzle is or what their thesis is,

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etc., then that conversation can slowly grind to a halt.

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And that can be frustrating for for the student, but also for the internal and external.

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So, in fact, you want the students to go into the viva, not only well prepared, in other words,

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they know their thesis well, but also hopefully you want them to go in with some enthusiasm.

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Remember, the internal and the external are experts in the field.

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And therefore, this is the you should see the viva as an opportunity to have a good natter with two people in your

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field who are interested in your project and who may well in the future become referees for jobs.

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So I think I realise this is a big ask because it's normal to be nervousl, to be nervous,

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but I strongly believe that preparing for a viva can actually reduce that

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problem and help you perform in a relaxed and congenial way in the actual viva

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I think my advice to students who are going into the viva.

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Is that they to the best of their ability, and I understand it's a nerve wracking moment,

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but they must try very hard not to become defensive in the viva

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I think I have been in some Vivas where the student has become overly defensive.

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I realise it's partly because of nerves. And as a result, the conversation has become stilted and in fact, sometimes uncomfortable.

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So remember, students need to remember that the internal and external, it's part of their job.

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It's part of their mandate to critically interrogate the piece of work in front of them

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and to engage you in a robust conversation about its strengths as well as its limits.

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So while I'm not suggesting you should concede on every point raised by the internal or external critical point, you must defend the.

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You must not become defensive. You must acknowledge that there are some limits to it.

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And you must show an understanding of why those limits arose.

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But whatever you do, don't go in there defensive because it will make your internal and external examiners defensive in return.

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So would you mind saying a bit more about major correction?

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Because I know it's something a lot of people are worried about. What's your experience with major corrections as opposed to minor?

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I think there are more major revisions than people realise. Let me put it that way.

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I think students often think that getting major revisions is a disaster.

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It's not. It's not. I mean, if you look at the if you look at the what do you call it from the description of each category,

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minor revisions should arguably only involve changes to the text typos or adding references or

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perhaps adding a table and perhaps adding a little bit of research in one discrete chapter.

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Anything more than that, anything that would require you to do the cuts across the chapters, for example, will go under major revisions.

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And yet that that may be necessary and may not take that long to do so, I think a lot of students do get major.

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That's my impression, especially since I think some years ago they made a change and they narrowed minor revisions down to two very small changes.

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So I would just encourage students to to not panic.

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They get major revisions to see that is eminently doable.

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I really like your point about cutting across chapters, being major revisions, minor revisions.

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And my impression is that minor revisions should be contained, containable,

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so we can go anywhere from typos to adding sections of a chapter, perhaps even sections to chapters.

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But anything that requires changing the story line, as I put it, is usually goes under, Major.

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I mean, keep in mind, Edward, that sometimes an external and internal will decide to give the student major revisions in part,

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in part to help them out and give them enough time to make those revisions.

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So remember, the difference between minor and major is not just about quality, if you like the thesis,

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but it's also about the amount of time that the internal and external deemed to be necessary to make the changes.

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And in order to determine that, they often ask student.

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What their needs are and what they're doing and how much time they need.

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Sometimes you might have a student that's working full time, for instance, they've had to get a job and therefore,

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the internal and external might make a decision partly about whether it's minor or a major,

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partly in terms of the amount of time that they think the student needs.

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So it's a strategic decision as well. And the last question I want to ask was a specific one about the the role of the chair, if that's OK.

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So. Increasingly at Exeter, and certainly in light of coronavirus,

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we're seeing a lot of PhDs being examined with this mysterious extra person on the panel who shouldn't and

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arguably make a huge amount of difference to the outcomes of either but whose role is very important.

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So could I ask you to say a bit more about that role, this non examining independent chair position, which I understand you've done yourself?

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Yes, although I have to say that I would I would question the idea that the independent chair plays any role in determining the outcome of viva,

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and that's not their role. The role of the of the independent chair,

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the non examining that's the key non examining independent chair is simply to to assess that you

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like and to monitor the viva and make sure that it is conducted according to the regulations.

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So they will not have read the thesis, they will have no view on on the content of it.

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They will have not be asked for their view on the outcome.

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The only thing that they are responsible for is the conduct of the viva itself and that it is conducted according to the rules.

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Can I ask a related question to that?

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This is something I've always wondered myself what once the candidate is asked to step out of the room or in my case,

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to temporarily leave the team's meeting as it was, because I had, of course, virtual viva

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What kind of things are actually said between the examiners?

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This is just a personal question I've always wondered this is it kind of oh few or is it kind of a OK or does it very much depend on the viva?

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It very much depends on the viva. And sometimes there is an overview, especially if the student is either very nervous,

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in which case the conversation is stilted and that's felt by all concerned or in the case where

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a student can be very defensive or just show no understanding of the weaknesses of the case.

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In all three cases or scenarios, vivas can be painful.

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And so the supervisors sorry, not the supervisor, the internal and external can sometimes be relieved at the end.

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Usually, however, and most of the Vivas I've done, it's very rare that that happens.

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By the way, most of the five years I've done the the internal and external look at each other

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and most of the time we've enjoyed the conversation we've had with the student.

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And in my experience anyway, is often and attempt to be as generous with the students as possible, generous and supportive of the student.

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And I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding that the job of the internal is to defend the students.

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The job of the external is to be the critical interrogator.

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In my experience, that's not the case.

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In my experience, the world of the internal is really only to make sure again, especially if there's no independent chair,

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that the Viva has been conducted in a way that is consistent with the regulations.

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Apart from that, both the internal and the external are expected to ask tough questions of the students.

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And it's not the role of the internal so-called defend the student unless unless they feel that the viva is taking

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an uncomfortable turn and that the external is being overly critical or destructive in their manner.

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But apart from that, both internal and external have the same role.

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In other words, they're there to assess the scholarship of the student and to determine whether it meets the required standards.

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What's your opinion on Mock Vivas? Do you tend to encourage your as a supervisor,

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your your students to have them always is a mock or something that you're kind of doing all through your PhD?

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I would actually encourage students to go through Mock Vivas

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I think it's good practise if for no other reason that it might help students manage their nerves.

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So if they performed the viva already with their supervisor perhaps and a friend.

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So I did it once with a colleague of mine, we both sat and pretended to be the internal and external and put the student through a grilling.

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And I think it worked very well. And hopefully it helped the student prepare for the viva because they were less nervous

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when they went in and they understood the kinds of questions they would be asked. So I think mock vivas are are are to be encouraged.

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Thanks again to Bice for that really illuminating conversation and discussion,

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which I'm sure will be very useful to those of us preparing for Vivas at the moment.

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Thank you so much to Edward and Bice for such an illuminating and supportive discussion.

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Our next episode will be the last one in this mini series on the Viva guest hosted by Edward

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In that episode, he'll be talking to one of his own Viva examiners. And that's it for this episode.

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Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me.

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Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything in between.