Working with an industry partner with Léna Prouchet

In this episode I talk again to Léna Prouchet about doing her PhD between the Environment and Sustainability Institute at the University of Exeter, and the NGO Cool Earth. You can find out more about Léna and her research on twitter and on her University of Exeter profile.

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome, R, D And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000
Hello and welcome to this special mini episode of R D and the In Betweens.

4
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,000
So one of the projects I'm working on at the moment at work is really trying to gather information

5
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000
about how people's research projects have had to change due to COVID and how they manage that.

6
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:54,000
And when I spoke to Lena last week, she talked a little bit about how actually.

7
00:00:54,000 --> 00:01:01,000
She started two weeks before the start of the pandemic, and that changed the nature and scope of her project quite substantially.

8
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000
So I wanted to take some of these conversations and make just a little special mini episode about how Lena adapted her project.

9
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:22,000
Yes. So I guess at the beginning we took a really inductive approach to this project.

10
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:27,000
And I mean, the pandemic happened two weeks after I started the project.

11
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:33,000
Yes. So the plan at the beginning was to collaborate with Cool Eartch

12
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:39,000
So from the beginning, I was supposed to work in their offices two days a week so I could get to know them and get to know their projects.

13
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,000
And after the plan was to go to Peru because they have a project there.

14
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,000
So the Latin American project they have are in Peru.

15
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:54,000
So I was supposed to do this exploratory trip where I would meet with the communities cool earth partner with.

16
00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:01,000
And we would come up with a research topic that would match everybody's interests.

17
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,000
Unfortunately, this was not possible because travelling to Peru was not an option.

18
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:17,000
So what I did was very much to tighten my links with Cool Earths so trying to understand their project

19
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:25,000
through Cool Earth itself and not the communities with the plan of going to Peru in the next few months.

20
00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:34,000
So kind of know adapting my approach. And this was made by me attending most of their team meetings.

21
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000
They have we also have meetings where we only talk about my research and I

22
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000
also present my research project and how it evolves quite regularly to them,

23
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:56,000
to their team in the UK. So the team I was talking about are based in Penryn, but also to the country team they have in Peru.

24
00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:04,000
That's really great and it does sound like you've had. A lot of freedom to shape the project.

25
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,000
Whilst I appreciate you know, it in organisational sense,

26
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:20,000
whilst at the same time being quite directed by not being able to go to Peru and the impact of COVID19,

27
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:25,000
I wondered if you could say a little bit about that experience,

28
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:31,000
about coming in with a kind of really clear understanding of what you were gonna do,

29
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:42,000
go and work and research these communities and then having to kind of really early on shift the focus of the project because of the pandemic.

30
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,000
Yeah. So that was that was a tough experience, especially.

31
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,000
I think it depends on people. And some people, they can adapt very easily.

32
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:58,000
But I'm a person who really likes to plan things. So I had applied to thisPhDposition.

33
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:04,000
The research proposal was already written. There was already the research question and the different steps of the research.

34
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:14,000
And for me, it was very reassuring because I would never have applied to a PhD and come up with a research proposal myself,

35
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,000
because I thought that I was ensured that my topic would be relevant.

36
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,000
So I thought if someone in academia identifies those gaps, it means they're expert on that.

37
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,000
So, I mean, it's it's helpful to do research in this area.

38
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:33,000
So this was very much my approach or I was only applying to project that were already super defined.

39
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:43,000
So I arrive and I have all this list. But like a to do list and it's very reassuring, especially since you don't know where to start.

40
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:52,000
And then two weeks after everything changes. Not only as a result of the pandemic, I think my project would have changed anyways.

41
00:04:52,000 --> 00:05:00,000
As I told you, because I needed you to take more of a business and management approach to it

42
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:04,000
And so eventually now when I would look at my research proposal, I think that I.

43
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,000
I did it myself. Like I really transformed it.

44
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000
The only thing that remains from the beginning is the partnership with Cool Earth

45
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:23,000
And I think that that's the most important part. And I think I feel proud about it because I feel this is something.

46
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,000
Yeah. That was the result of months of work and collaboration and discussions.

47
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:37,000
And it's actually I have this sense of ownership that I wouldn't have had with the initial proposal.

48
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000
So in the process of it, it was very hard.

49
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000
I had months where I was coming up with a research question every week because I was stressing out a lot about it and thinking,

50
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,000
okay, I'm never going to find a relevant topic. It's never gonna happen.

51
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:59,000
I had those phases during the summer, but eventually it worked out.

52
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000
So the process was tough. It was definitely worth it.

53
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000
And now, yes, I'm happy.

54
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:13,000
Although I know it's going to change a lot when I start fieldwork and the approach is going to be totally different in the final work.

55
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:19,000
But for now, I'm I'm pleased with. With the topic and the approach.

56
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:26,000
Yeah. And I think there's a number of things that you said in that which I think are really important, which.

57
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:35,000
What I've been discussing a lot with colleagues, and it's not to in any way downplay the impact of COVID on people's research projects on it,

58
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:41,000
and it has had varying degrees of impact where kind of people have had to,

59
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:47,000
you know, shift to doing things, you know, doing interviews or whatever on line to completely,

60
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:54,000
you know, in in a lot of the ways that you don't like completely redesigning the project.

61
00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:01,000
But it's interesting to hear you talk about that kind of flexibility and adaptability and the importance of that and the

62
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:10,000
also the kind of slightly philosophical recognition that research is about change fundamentally.

63
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,000
And, you know, when you talk to any researcher, but certainly any, you know, postgraduate researcher like yourself,

64
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:27,000
where they start when they come in with a proposal and where they leave when they, you know, submit their thesis.

65
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,000
Are always two incredibly different places.

66
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:41,000
I'm not. And I think that's that's reassuring because, I mean, when you start to feel work is you're not open to what you're seeing,

67
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:48,000
what people tell you in you have your agenda in mind, in your just telling people, I'm going to do this and this and this.

68
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:54,000
I mean, it's I don't think that's a very constructive nor ethical approach.

69
00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:04,000
So I think it's good to. It's even necessary to to remain open minded during the entire project, especially in my case,

70
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:12,000
where I work with indigenous communities, where communities who have been over researched.

71
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:19,000
And it's interesting because I had the opportunity to talk with an anthropologist that work with Cool Earth last summer.

72
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,000
And she told me about her experience of going to the communities and during the community assembly.

73
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:32,000
So members of the communities telling her, yeah, but what ways should we take part in this?

74
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:39,000
It's always the same process of you Western researchers coming on taking our knowledge and leaving and we never hear from you again.

75
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:50,000
So what are the benefits from Forest? Right. So if you take a more participatory approach and saying, OK, we're gonna remain open,

76
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:58,000
we're going to construct this research together and we're going to identify your needs and see how the research projects can benefit,

77
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:05,000
can benefit you, then I think that's that's the best way of doing it.

78
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:12,000
Yeah. And I think. I think that's really interesting and the issue of of of ethics.

79
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000
I think that was really interesting and I'll come back to that in a moment. But.

80
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:24,000
As you were saying that I was thinking about, well, actually, when you do get to do fieldwork now,

81
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,000
the framing and the approach of that field work will be very different.

82
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:41,000
Having worked within within the organisation in the U.K. for, you know, a year or plus and actually the kind of the way in which that will.

83
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:54,000
Inform. The way the way that your approach that and I guess the additional context and knowledge and skills and all those sorts of things that you've gained from.

84
00:09:54,000 --> 00:10:01,000
Taking that step back and spending time with the organisation. Yes, I think it also there are some pros and cons.

85
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000
So, of course, the pros is that. I know.

86
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:15,000
I know more about what's happening in the community, the relationship between Cool Earth and the communities with UK and also Peruvian team.

87
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000
So it's very good that I have this communication with Peruvian teams because they are the ones who go to the community more often.

88
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:27,000
They also have technicians that live with the communities. So I have this insight.

89
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,000
Well, on the other hand, then it gives me a certain perspective and a certain vision.

90
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:38,000
I don't think that's bad. And I think any researcher has has biases.

91
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000
You just have to acknowledge that.

92
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:50,000
And you I mean, from the recommendation that I had in the various articles, I could read about that when you arrive,

93
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,000
even though you're in embedded research within your organisation,

94
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:57,000
when you arrive to fieldwork in the communities, you're not working for the organisation.

95
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000
You have to make this clear to community members. Of course, because you have to tell them that you're independent and what they're going to tell you,

96
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:12,000
you're not going to going to report it in any way. So it's it's important for the trust and the relationships you're you're building with them.

97
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:20,000
But you also have to try to put aside what you've seen before and really take

98
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:26,000
this new approach and trying to understand from scratch what's happening there.

99
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:34,000
And this is very challenging. So the way now I see I'm going to try to to address this is to spend an initial

100
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:43,000
phase of one month in the communities doing only participant observation to.

101
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:51,000
Yes, to try to understand how he works there. Also to prove that I'm there, too, to work with them,

102
00:11:51,000 --> 00:12:00,000
but not to to steal anything in terms of of knowledge or practises, really to to build those those trust relationships.

103
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:07,000
And then from there, from what I've seen during the past, leaving the reservation and from my previous learnings with Cool Earth and the interviews,

104
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,000
I'm going to you then deciding on on follow up methods such as, I don't know, interview or focus groups.

105
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:27,000
But this will come in second time. So can you say a little bit about how you approached or went about thinking about how to change the project?

106
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:35,000
So, yes, after I think what mattered for me that I tried to get in touch with other PhD students

107
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000
or postdocs to ask them about this process of reshaping their research topics,

108
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000
because I know this is something that happens a lot for PhD programmes.

109
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:55,000
And I thought it was interesting to have the to the experience of my peers and some of them and told me, well,

110
00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:01,000
first of all, think about yourself, because you're going to live with this project for the next now three.

111
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,000
But it was four years at the beginning.

112
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:11,000
So if you don't like it, if you're not happy to to read about it, write about it every morning, then it's not going to work out.

113
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:18,000
And this is something I had kind of forgotten at the beginning because I really wanted to comply.

114
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:25,000
And to be sure, I was ticking the boxes. But then, yes, as the months came along, I thought, okay.

115
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000
I have to find this balance and I have to find this topic that also pleases me in something I'm passionate about.

116
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:42,000
So this took really a long time. I started in March and they came up with the final idea in November.

117
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000
And my supervisor, they had reassured me from the beginning that it was normal.

118
00:13:46,000 --> 00:14:00,000
It was going to take a long time. So you had to be to get lost in the the literature jungle and then see which angle you wanted to to adopt.

119
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:09,000
Thanks, Lena, for that insight into the reorganisation of PPhD project.

120
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:15,000
Two weeks in, I'd be really interested to talk to other people who've had to change their projects due to COVID.

121
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:19,000
So please, if you're interested in sharing your experience, good.

122
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:24,000
The bad, the ugly. Please do get in touch. And that's it for this episode.

123
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,000
Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me.

124
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:54,505
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.

4
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,000
It's Kelly Preece here. And today I'm gonna be talking to one of our PGRs Lena.

5
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:48,000
Now, Lena started her PhD at a really odd time just a couple of weeks before the start of the pandemic.

6
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:57,000
But the reason that I wanted to talk to her is actually because her PhD is a collaboration between the university and an external partner.

7
00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:01,000
This is a common thing in these days in terms of funding,

8
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:09,000
but it presents particular situations and challenges for the student in working between two very different organisations.

9
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,000
And I was delighted that Lena was happy to speak to me about this.

10
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,000
So, Lena, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah. Hi.

11
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:24,000
Good morning. Thank you for for having me in your podcast, Kelly. So my name is Lena.

12
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:32,000
I'm finishing the first year of my PhD in the business school that I'm based in the ESI

13
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:41,000
So the Environmental and Sustainability Institute in Penryn and my PhD looks at how indigenous intrapreneurship,

14
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:50,000
so more specifically cocoa and coffee growing, can empower forest communities who perform these activities.

15
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,000
And more specifically, I'm interested in how these activities are supported by external organisations

16
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:05,000
such as NGOs and how these organisations play a role in the empowerment processes.

17
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:11,000
So, yeah, I work in directly in collaboration with an NGO called Cool Earth

18
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:16,000
So they are based on the penryn campus as well.

19
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:27,000
And they're a conservation NGO whose founding principle is that people who live in the rainforest should determine their own future.

20
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:32,000
So Cool Earth creates projects for sustainable livelihood creation,

21
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:38,000
and those projects can contribute to forest preservation and climate change mitigation.

22
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000
That's great. Thank you.

23
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:49,000
So actually, the thing we're going to talk about today is the experience for you of working between the university and the NGO.

24
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000
So I guess it's a good place to start is. How how did that come about?

25
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:59,000
So how I guess, how did the  collaboration between the NGO and the university came about?

26
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:05,000
And then what kind of led you to become interested and apply for the project?

27
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:13,000
Yeah. So I applied for this PhD position in July twenty nineteen, so it's been quite a long time ago now.

28
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,000
And on the project description, there was no direct mention.

29
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:27,000
Of Cool Earth, the project was only talking about food security issues within indigenous communities in Latin America.

30
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:36,000
And this was a topic I was very interested in because at that time I was doing a masters degree in food policy.

31
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,000
And previous to that, I had done a master's in international development.

32
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:47,000
And I had looked for my thesis, the question of the preservation of indigenous intellectual property.

33
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:51,000
So it was very in line with my interests.

34
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:56,000
So then I emailed the main supervisor to ask for more information.

35
00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,000
I got in touch with the main supervisor of the project, who is Stefano Pascucci

36
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,000
and he explained to me that this project will be a collaboration with Cool Earth

37
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000
So this was already decided.

38
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:16,000
And actually, when I took the interview, there were two people from the University of Exeter and two people from Cool Earth.

39
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:22,000
So, okay, so the the relationship and the NGO were really embedded from the beginning then.

40
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:35,000
They're part of the interview process as well. Yes. So I guess at the beginning we took a really inductive approach to this project.

41
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:41,000
And I mean, the pandemic happened two weeks after I started the project.

42
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,000
Yes. So the plan at the beginning was to collaborate with Cool Earth.

43
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:53,000
So from the beginning, I was supposed to work in their offices two days a week so I could get to know them and get to know their projects.

44
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,000
And after the plan was to go to Peru because they have a project there.

45
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,000
So the Latin American project they have are in Peru.

46
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:07,000
So I was supposed to do this exploratory trip where I would meet with the communities cool earth partner with.

47
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:14,000
And we would have come up with a research topic that would match everybody's interests.

48
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:20,000
Unfortunately, this was not possible because travelling to Peru was not an option.

49
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:31,000
So what I did was very much to tighten my links with Cool Earth so trying to understand their project

50
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:38,000
through Cool Earth itself and not the communities with the plan of going to Peru in the next few months.

51
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:47,000
So kind of, you know, adapting my approach. And this was made by me attending most of their team meetings.

52
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:53,000
They have we also have meetings where we only talk about my research and I

53
00:05:53,000 --> 00:06:00,000
also present my research project and how it evolves quite regularly to them,

54
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,000
to their team in the UK. So the team I was talking about based in Penryn, but also to the in country.

55
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,000
team they have in Peru Think the the shift in the project.

56
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:16,000
That was really interesting. So I can I can sort of imagine that the dynamic and the relationship between you,

57
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:22,000
the research and the research project and the organisation had to shift quite considerably if you're

58
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:30,000
going from kind of researching the projects and the communities that they work with to actually.

59
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:36,000
Researching the organiser. Yes. So that's a very interesting point, so.

60
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:41,000
So at the beginning, my unit of analysis was supposed to be the communities themselves.

61
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:51,000
But since I I have this embedded approach. As you said that I came to really try to understand how Cool Earth worked and

62
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,000
why was their theory of change and why were the challenges they were facing.

63
00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:06,000
I shifted my approach and now the units of analysis is more the network that cool earth created in these creating with its partners.

64
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,000
So it really influenced my approach. It also changed the topic of my research.

65
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:17,000
So as I told you at the beginning, it was very much so food security related.

66
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000
And more specifically, was alluding to sustainable agriculture and agroecology.

67
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:31,000
But early on, I realised that there were issues with this this topic.

68
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,000
And first of all, in the sense that I couldn't go to Peru, as I said before.

69
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,000
So it was very hard for me to understand what was happening there exactly on the ground.

70
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:47,000
Although cool earth gave me very interesting insights on what was happening there.

71
00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:52,000
But the second problem I had is that I'm PhD student in the business school.

72
00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:03,000
And it was made clear to me by my supervisors from the beginning that I had to bring a contribution to the business or the management literature.

73
00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:09,000
So I tried to to shift the topic so that it would please both.

74
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:19,000
Cool earth and the business school, my supervisor, and most importantly, that it would be a topic that I would be passionate about.

75
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:25,000
I mean, simple as that. Yeah. So it took a long time.

76
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:30,000
A lot of it was a very iterative process, a lot of conversation.

77
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:36,000
What was great was that there was always a connection between my supervisors and cool earth as well.

78
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:42,000
So we had a meeting where we would all talk together about my projects or communication.

79
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:51,000
I think it was very important in this process. And I mean this I think this is part of the hD research that you have to constantly adapt.

80
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:57,000
And I consider myself lucky because, I mean, I started the PhD really two weeks before lockdown.

81
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,000
So nothing was set in stone yet. I could really adapt.

82
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:08,000
It's not like I had planned already. I had my tickets for Peru and I had to change everything, which would have been way more complicated.

83
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000
Of course, there's a couple of things I want to pick up, pick up on that in terms of relationship.

84
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:19,000
So the first one to kind of sort of, you know,

85
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:25,000
focussed more on the kind of topic for the minute is about your relationship, therefore, with the organisation.

86
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:32,000
So. You know, you talked about being kind of embedded in it and, you know, the idea was that you'd spend time in their offices.

87
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,000
Obviously, that has happened, I imagine, in a in a very different way during the pandemic.

88
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:45,000
But I wondered if you could talk about kind of being embedded or being part of the organisation,

89
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:51,000
but also researching the organisation and what's that what that's like for you as a researcher,

90
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:59,000
but also what how that kind of how that affects your relationships with the people in the organisation, how you navigate that?

91
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:09,000
Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. So it's funny because this concept of embedded research I actually found about it quite recently when

92
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:16,000
I was so I was working on my upgrades and I was having a conversation with one of my supervisor,

93
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:22,000
one of my supervisors, sorry, and she told me what actually what you're doing is is embedded research,

94
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:31,000
because usually what a researcher does is preparing and having this phase of literature review and then going to the to the field.

95
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:41,000
But what happened for me was I dived into the field from day one and I hadn't really realised that for me it was something natural about had happened.

96
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:51,000
And actually this position has a lot of consequences on the approach towards the research project, and it has benefits and challenges.

97
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:55,000
So I would say that.

98
00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:03,000
So the main benefit that you have is that you're really able to build those trust based relationships with the other members of the team.

99
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:09,000
So you understand what the work is, but also who they are as a person.

100
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:19,000
So you can really bond with them. And I think it's a very important element of research, of building this, what is called the raport.

101
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,000
You can also gain deep knowledge on the organisation.

102
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:28,000
It's not like you look at their Web site. You really understand how they work from an internal point of view.

103
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,000
And they think this is also very valuable.

104
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:44,000
And this allows you to build a project that I called action oriented in the sense that I really endeavour to ensure that my research priorities

105
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:54,000
were in line with Cool earth's interests and that I was I was coming up with a project that could really inform their future strategies.

106
00:11:54,000 --> 00:12:02,000
I mean, also, it is going to be an academic work, but I really wanted to be Demand-Driven.

107
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:11,000
We also had the opportunity to to work on a variety of projects that are not necessarily related to my to my research group.

108
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,000
We're working, for example, on a crowdfunding application together or on a conference abstract

109
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,000
So we have though those side projects are very also interesting for me.

110
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,000
And I would say that it's also super nice to meet with people during the pandemic because otherwise I don't have a research group.

111
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,000
So it would be very much me, myself and I.

112
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:43,000
I'm in meetings with my supervisors, of course, but those weekly meetings I have with Cool earth have been very important for my mental health as well.

113
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,000
this also comes with some challenges so like you were

114
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:58,000
mentioning my relationship with the organisation and how I can manage that because I'm researching them at the same time, which can be quite tricky.

115
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:06,000
So in terms of ethics, approach, first avoids very hard to to manage that, because in the end,

116
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:13,000
when you're going through the ethical review process, you don't have to start that correction before having the approval.

117
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:20,000
So all the information I gathered until now, I'm not going to do for in my research is data.

118
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,000
I'm going to just use it as a way of building my research project.

119
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,000
But then I'm going to do formal interviews with cool Earth members.

120
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:35,000
And I already told them that everything they had disclosed with me previously, I wouldn't use it for.

121
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,000
For ethics purposes.

122
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000
So you have also to be aware that there might be the temptation of  thinking, oh, I heard this amazing thing during a meeting.

123
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:52,000
That would be great if I can use it. But no, you can't. So this is something you really have to be careful about.

124
00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:01,000
As I was saying, I also tend to very much focus on trying to come up with a project that's helpful for Cool Earth.

125
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000
And since I have those very tight links with them, sometimes I tend to forget.

126
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000
But I also am a PhD student and I have to bring a contribution to specific literature.

127
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,000
So it's kind of hard to be in the middle sometimes.

128
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:23,000
So I try to remind myself and my supervisors are here for that as well.

129
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:32,000
And also, I would say that the last element is. I really feel that Cool earth's members, they trust me and they value my opinion.

130
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:40,000
So sometimes, yes, I share with them my thoughts or some notes on academic reading I had.

131
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:50,000
But I feel I lack the legitimacy to really be able to provide any advice, because, I mean, there they have been there for a long time.

132
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,000
They know the topic. They know your communities. They have relationship with those communities.

133
00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:02,000
And I'm on the I have only been there for 12 months and working from home.

134
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000
So, yeah, sometimes it's I feel a little bit like that.

135
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,000
But otherwise, it has been a great experience. Sounds really fruitful.

136
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:17,000
And I think it's really interesting to hear you talk about the sense of connection with people that working in this way has given you,

137
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:24,000
particularly during the kind of the UK lockdowns and the corona virus pandemic, because.

138
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:30,000
Yeah, the impact on your mental health. I think that that's a really interesting facet and kind of had extra of this.

139
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:38,000
So you've talked a little bit about kind of making sure that the research project is useful to the organisation,

140
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,000
making sure that it makes an academic contribution.

141
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:50,000
So sort of satisfying your supervisors at the university, but also making sure that it's interesting to you as a researcher and.

142
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:56,000
I sort of glibly commented when you mentioned that oh it's as simple as that. But of course, we know that it's it's nothing like.

143
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:05,000
So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about how how you negotiate that kind of almost a triad of expectations,

144
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:11,000
but also kind of triad of what people want out of the project and how what the

145
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,000
challenges are with that and maybe a little bit about how you've been negotiating it.

146
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,000
Yes, sure. So I as I mentioned before,

147
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:30,000
I think one of the key points was to have this communication with both my supervisors and my academic team and cool earth and even between then,

148
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,000
they can communicate. So it's not just me telling to the other.

149
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,000
Oh, they have told me that in doing this back and forth thing, we have really a group.

150
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,000
I feel it. So we're a group and we we all have a common goal.

151
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000
And we wanted to create a project that is interesting for all of us.

152
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:54,000
So I think it's important then that we are on the same line also from the beginning.

153
00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:02,000
Cool earth's members told me that they were really open on their research topic as long as it was relevant to their projects.

154
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:12,000
So they really gave me this freedom and they did an imposing list of topic I should focus on.

155
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:20,000
So, yes, after I think what mattered for me that I tried to get in touch with other PhD students

156
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,000
or postdocs to ask them about this process of reshaping their research topics,

157
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,000
because I know this is something that happens a lot for PhD programmes.

158
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:40,000
And I thought it was interesting to have to the experience of my peers and a lot of them told me, well,

159
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:46,000
first of all, think about yourself, because you're going to live with this project for the next now three.

160
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,000
But it was four years at the beginning.

161
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:56,000
So if you don't like it, if you're not happy to to read about it, write about it every morning, then it's not going to work out.

162
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:06,000
And this is something I had. Kind of forgotten at the beginning because I really wanted to comply and to be sure, I was ticking the boxes.

163
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000
But then, yes, as the months came along, I thought, okay.

164
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:18,000
I have to find this balance and I have to find this topic that also pleases me in something I'm passionate about.

165
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:27,000
So this took really a long time. I started in March and they came up with the final idea in November.

166
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,000
And my supervisor, they had reassured me from the beginning that it was normal.

167
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:44,000
It was going to take a long time. So you had to be to get lost in the literature jungle and then and see which angle you wanted to to adopt.

168
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:52,000
I wanted to talk to close by asking you if that's another potential PGR out there,

169
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:59,000
who is looking at doing a piece of research that is working between a university and external organisation.

170
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:05,000
What advice would you give them? What would you sort of tell them to consider?

171
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Mm hmm. Yeah. So how to be a good embedded researcher?

172
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:23,000
Well, first of all, that that's an approach I would definitely encourage as often as possible when it's relevant to the research topic.

173
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:34,000
I think what's important is to be clear from the beginning of what the collaboration entails and what it does not entail.

174
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:43,000
Even to have it's written down. So it's it's clear between the researcher and the organisation, but also the supervisory team.

175
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:54,000
And I think what makes for me this collaboration very fruitful is the communication between the organisation and my supervisory team.

176
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,000
I think it's very good to have this contact. So to ensure we are on the same line.

177
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,000
And there are no there are not two agendas growing side to side.

178
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:09,000
And because I think this is the one thing that can be very challenging for for researchers.

179
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:16,000
Thank you so much to Lena for sharing her experience with us of working between the university and

180
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:24,000
Cool Earth and the unique challenges there are between working between the university and industry partner,

181
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,000
but also doing that and starting that during COVID

182
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:35,000
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me next time.

183
00:20:35,000 --> 00:21:01,149
where i'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.