Episodes
Wednesday Mar 16, 2022
Being a neurodiverse PGR
Wednesday Mar 16, 2022
Wednesday Mar 16, 2022
In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens I am talking to Dr. Jane May Morrison and Dr. Edward Mills about being a neurodiverse PGR in honour of Neurodiversity Celebration Week!
I have developed some advice for supervising neurodiverse PGRs from my conversation with Jane and Edward, which you can find on the University of Exeter Doctoral College blog.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Transcript
1
00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens.
2
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,530
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.
3
00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:36,160
Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In-betweens.
4
00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:41,500
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and I'm bringing you a special episode for Neurodiversity Celebration Week.
5
00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:48,250
So I'm going to be talking to two of our neurodiverse graduates about their experience of doing a Ph.D.
6
00:00:48,250 --> 00:00:54,370
So for those that don't know, neurodiversity is a way that we talk about variations or differences in the human brain.
7
00:00:54,370 --> 00:01:02,590
They may be regarding sociability, learning attention or mood, and we characterise those as differences rather than pathology.
8
00:01:02,590 --> 00:01:07,300
So rather than as something that's wrong with someone, it's just a way that they're different.
9
00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:17,200
Specifically, our guests today are autistic, so autism is a form of neurodiversity, but in and of itself refers to a very broad range of conditions,
10
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:22,450
which can be characterised by challenges with social skills, repetitive behaviours,
11
00:01:22,450 --> 00:01:30,430
speech and nonverbal communication, but not necessarily all of or just exclusive to these things.
12
00:01:30,430 --> 00:01:35,860
This episode is part of a new series where we're going to talk to researchers about
13
00:01:35,860 --> 00:01:42,040
their experiences of doing research with particular challenges such as neurodiversity,
14
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,800
and hopefully produce some guidance for supervisors, for PIs
15
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:56,290
for research leaders about how to best support and our researchers who have unique challenges within the research environment.
16
00:01:56,290 --> 00:02:04,870
Yeah, my name is Jane, and I'm originally from Glasgow, and I came to Exeter to do my PhD in human geography.
17
00:02:04,870 --> 00:02:12,040
I studied eco towns and whether or not living there is likelier to make you do green behaviours or not.
18
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:22,210
I was late diagnosed with autism at 29, and I'm also going to speak a little bit about the kind of ADHD neurodiversity perspective here as well,
19
00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:33,470
because my husband also who has ADHD, got his Ph.D. a few years ago, so we had to neurodiverse doctors in this house.
20
00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:40,490
I love that phrase two neurodiverse doctors. It sounds like it should be a TV show.
21
00:02:40,490 --> 00:02:43,700
I'm Edward. Do you want to go next? Yeah, of course.
22
00:02:43,700 --> 00:02:53,390
So Edward Mills, I am a lecturer in mediaeval studies now at Exeter, but I completed my PhD back in 2021.
23
00:02:53,390 --> 00:03:03,290
I think it was, yes. And I am here representing the autism side of things specifically.
24
00:03:03,290 --> 00:03:09,640
I was also late diagnosed not quite as late as Jane at I think twenty three.
25
00:03:09,640 --> 00:03:13,450
That poses some challenges, but I've never really thought about.
26
00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:21,970
How autism interests with study until a certain point, during my PhD which I am sure we will discuss in detail later
27
00:03:21,970 --> 00:03:27,400
Yes, thank you both, and I think that's what's particularly interesting about this conversation actually is
28
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,320
and is not just thinking about neurodiversity in general in terms of the PhD process,
29
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:43,610
but also, you know. Late diagnosis of of neurodiversity and how that particularly is, you're kind of embarking on a research degree,
30
00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:53,210
how that impacts your approach and your support and your position as a student whilst your grappling with.
31
00:03:53,210 --> 00:03:59,270
The diagnosis, were you both diagnosed before you started your research degrees
32
00:03:59,270 --> 00:04:01,430
No, I wasn't myself.
33
00:04:01,430 --> 00:04:12,560
I was only diagnosed within the first few months of my Ph.D., which was news that I didn't expect, and it wasn't terribly helpful, to be honest.
34
00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:18,170
Yeah. So can you say something about that? About what? What do you mean by it wasn't terribly helpful.
35
00:04:18,170 --> 00:04:24,560
So I suppose in the long run, you could say it was helpful in the sense that it's better to know if you're having if you're struggling,
36
00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:30,650
if you're having some difficulties communicating, if you're having some trouble with some aspects of study and being on campus.
37
00:04:30,650 --> 00:04:33,740
It's better to know than not to know. I completely believe in that.
38
00:04:33,740 --> 00:04:39,290
That's I completely believe in having the right information to understand your own condition.
39
00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:47,540
On the other hand, you don't necessarily want to hear just as you start one of the most difficult kinds of academic challenges of your life,
40
00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:51,110
that you are also going to have to do it slightly with, you know,
41
00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:56,240
an added difficulty level there of having a condition you hadn't anticipated or not having to manage.
42
00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,880
So there are swings and roundabouts to knowing at that point. Absolutely.
43
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,990
What about you, Edwards, different circumstances similar outcome
44
00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:10,220
I think so. I was diagnosed a while before I started my research degree.
45
00:05:10,220 --> 00:05:14,540
I was diagnosed the day before my graduation for my undergraduate defree
46
00:05:14,540 --> 00:05:22,520
but I didn't really do anything about it, so to speak, until about six months into my Ph.D.
47
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:31,030
So the experience of coming to terms with what the diagnosis of, in my case, Asperger's meant.
48
00:05:31,030 --> 00:05:38,140
Wasn't something that I'd really had to tackle until it got to a point where I needed to do something about it.
49
00:05:38,140 --> 00:05:44,380
Yeah, so there's there's the dual challenges of, you know, the challenges of doing a research degree anyway,
50
00:05:44,380 --> 00:05:51,430
which let's face it, it's not the easiest of undertakings. But then also, you know.
51
00:05:51,430 --> 00:06:00,640
Coming, getting to grips with the diagnosis and what it means, and also, I guess what support is available to you and I'd be quite interested to know.
52
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:09,450
And you know, quite honestly about the did you access any support from the university?
53
00:06:09,450 --> 00:06:13,840
As somebody who is neurodivergent or did you?
54
00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:22,630
Did you feel kind of comfortable to continue your studies kind of without support mechanisms or you know or were,
55
00:06:22,630 --> 00:06:28,400
you know, how were the support mechanisms in place were they beneficial or not, I guess is the, you know?
56
00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:36,460
Yeah, I see what you mean there. Yeah, I suppose that sometimes disability accommodations can be a little bit one size fits all.
57
00:06:36,460 --> 00:06:44,140
That can be a little bit of a nuance lost between figuring out the different conditions are really going to require different things.
58
00:06:44,140 --> 00:06:48,160
A lot of it is tailored towards undergrads. That's that's something I found in general.
59
00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:57,910
From speaking to other neurodiverse peers. They're not necessarily completely sure what to do with some of the situations that arise during the PhD.
60
00:06:57,910 --> 00:07:05,500
It's more about having extra exam time and things that are the things that would come up more in an undergrad course.
61
00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:12,220
That's not to say that there was nothing helpful on offer. I don't want to come down hard on that at all.
62
00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:20,020
But some of it wasn't as tailored towards actually autism as opposed to just, oh well, there is a general disability here.
63
00:07:20,020 --> 00:07:27,520
Therefore, you find academic life generally difficult, therefore have extra time on an exam.
64
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,700
And yeah, and like you say, it's it's there's the.
65
00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:39,190
So there's the issue there of the kind of generic support for all disabilities and whether, you know,
66
00:07:39,190 --> 00:07:43,720
without getting into a debate of whether you consider neurodivergence to be a disability,
67
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:50,060
but also let you say it's it's aimed towards undergraduates, so it's more time in an exam, which just does.
68
00:07:50,060 --> 00:07:55,420
It just doesn't apply in the in the research environment.
69
00:07:55,420 --> 00:08:05,050
Yeah, I mean, in my case, I found it difficult sometimes to tell the difference between struggling with something because of because of the condition,
70
00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:12,970
because of autism or just am I struggling with something because it's something that any PhD would struggle with and the people around me as well,
71
00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:18,310
like, how do we attribute that if there is a difficultly or if there's something, I'm finding tricky?
72
00:08:18,310 --> 00:08:24,160
How do we how do we kind of pass out if it really is something that I'm just finding difficult because of who I am?
73
00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,960
Or is it genuinely like, would anyone find this a tough situation?
74
00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:35,090
Hmm. Yeah. And like I said, if you are doing research degree is tough.
75
00:08:35,090 --> 00:08:41,960
Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. Well, what if you go to say on that Edward in terms of your experience?
76
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,780
So I think it's again not altogether dissimilar,
77
00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:54,410
certainly the way in which Exeter and a lot of institutions address the challenges that something like
78
00:08:54,410 --> 00:09:00,740
an autism or ADHD diagnosis might pose for students is some variant of something called an individual.
79
00:09:00,740 --> 00:09:08,390
Learning plans wasn't really applicable. It's through the ILP at Exeter, where you get things like adjustments for exam time.
80
00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:14,780
But in my case if I could give one piece of advice to a neurodiverse PGR it would be this.
81
00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:21,020
I was able to make use of the supervision agreements, which is something that is specific to PGR.
82
00:09:21,020 --> 00:09:26,390
So in my case, I actually had the almost the supervision contract.
83
00:09:26,390 --> 00:09:32,540
If that makes sense that every new PGR signed up to individually with their supervisors at the start of the Ph.D.,
84
00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:37,910
I mentioned it there and highlighted autism from the start.
85
00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:47,300
In that context, there wasn't really anything that an ILP tailored towards an undergraduate would necessarily achieve.
86
00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:55,160
So I didn't want to put that weight on the accessibility team next to manage that.
87
00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,770
So I found that going through that what is available to PGR specifically was quite helpful to take.
88
00:10:00,770 --> 00:10:06,200
So I guess that leads to two questions.
89
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,530
Sure, we'll deal with. So stick with the support theme.
90
00:10:10,530 --> 00:10:18,870
To start with, one of which is so you know, you said. You know, you, Edward, you raised.
91
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:26,040
Your diagnosis within supervision agreement that was is a PGR related process,
92
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:32,220
and you've both reflected on kind of the individual learning plan model is that it's aimed at undergraduates.
93
00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:35,200
I guess my question then is what?
94
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:47,320
What support could have been available if that process were less aimed at undergraduates and it was it was more aware of the PGR experience?
95
00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,100
Is there support that you think the university could have given you that it didn't?
96
00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:55,390
I think it's important to say that the support the university offers for neurodiverse,
97
00:10:55,390 --> 00:11:02,620
students isn't just an ILP, there were other areas of the university support for autistic students.
98
00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:05,860
In my case, I was able to access it, which I benefited enormously from.
99
00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:16,240
So, for example, there is the not at all oxymoronic autism social group, which I attended on a few occasions.
100
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:23,620
That tends to be quite undergraduate heavy, but it's always nice to meet people whose brains work in a similar way to yours, regardless of age.
101
00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:31,090
The university did also offer autism mentoring, which you can tailor and you can use its something a lot of universities do
102
00:11:31,090 --> 00:11:40,660
You can tailor and you can iuse it any way you see fit, so. In my case, it was not about some of the concerns that undergraduates might have.
103
00:11:40,660 --> 00:11:49,420
It wasn't about sort of. Principles of very basic time management that you might be coming to for the first time if you were going to graduate,
104
00:11:49,420 --> 00:11:57,640
it was sort of more more complex ideas than that and my mentor was still able to to help out with that enormously.
105
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,410
Yeah. So for me, a lot of it was simply awareness raising.
106
00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:12,160
I found helpful. Some accommodations are more to me of a safety net than something that is frequently needed.
107
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:23,170
I found that having a tailored kind of ILP type document of requirements, especially for my viva, it was very good to have as a safety net.
108
00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:31,330
It was very good to know that they had been aware that if my eye contact wasn't exactly as another students might have been,
109
00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:35,890
it's not because I'm being shifty or suspicious or because I'm hiding something, you know,
110
00:12:35,890 --> 00:12:41,290
it's just a natural feature of autism that you don't always make eye contact in quite the same way.
111
00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:48,070
And simply having that level of awareness and also having the option of the things that were in it was things like being able to take breaks,
112
00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:53,440
when I needed or if I appeared to be getting overwhelmed, if there was any flapping and skimming going on.
113
00:12:53,440 --> 00:13:02,440
It's a sign that your autistic student is starting to get a bit agitated. Time to call a break and start again, things like that in it.
114
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:06,040
In the end, none of that was necessary. The Viva went really well.
115
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:11,050
No need for taking any breaks. I felt completely in control and enjoyed the whole thing.
116
00:13:11,050 --> 00:13:14,200
But the fact that it was there as a safety net was helpful.
117
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:21,640
So sometimes even just knowing that your supervisors and the people who work with you are aware if you should become overwhelmed,
118
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:27,810
if you should start to get into difficulties. I think it makes all the difference.
119
00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:36,300
Yeah, I really that really resonates with me, the the issue of awareness and also having, like you say,
120
00:13:36,300 --> 00:13:47,620
having those things in place if they are needed because they are not necessarily going to be needed, we're not dealing with with, you know.
121
00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:51,790
We're not dealing with fixed experiences. No, that's yeah, but yeah.
122
00:13:51,790 --> 00:13:54,910
Also from the from the kind of ADHD perspective as well.
123
00:13:54,910 --> 00:14:03,280
It's it's looking back in retrospect that things I think would have made the whole experience easier for those with attention deficit disorder.
124
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,500
I mean, things like customised workplaces,
125
00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:11,950
because the science indicates that people with ADHD tend to learn better when they're a little bit in motion.
126
00:14:11,950 --> 00:14:16,690
So if they have the ability to pace up and down as they're studying, you know,
127
00:14:16,690 --> 00:14:23,530
that's why situations like hot desking in a quiet room where there's lots of people all together and everyone needs to be very quiet and considerate.
128
00:14:23,530 --> 00:14:23,890
You know,
129
00:14:23,890 --> 00:14:31,630
if you can give the ADHD students a little bit of space on their own for some pacing and talking to themselves and waving their hands at a whiteboard,
130
00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:36,760
you know this is how we do it in our household. Maybe it's a little kooky, but it works, you know?
131
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:45,810
And that's something that's specific to ADHD. Also, things like supervisors being able to.
132
00:14:45,810 --> 00:14:51,240
Stay quite on the ball. Stay quite strict with deadlines,
133
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,400
because even though you would assume that a lot of people that I've talked to who are managing
134
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:02,910
ADHD at university say that if the supervisor gives them to kind of vague or deadline and says,
135
00:15:02,910 --> 00:15:08,340
Oh, get it in whenever I don't really mind, I trust you. They say, Well, you know, how am I going to keep my concentration?
136
00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:16,320
I've got to keep my motivation high. I've got to have people you know that I can sign in with and check in with and talk to regularly.
137
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:24,990
So, yeah, it's surprising that what does work for one condition? It's surprising how much it really doesn't work for another sometimes.
138
00:15:24,990 --> 00:15:28,890
Yeah, and so there's there's a couple of things in there which which are really important.
139
00:15:28,890 --> 00:15:39,880
One is like you say, it's the it's. Different people require different structures, and you've both mentioned it,
140
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:49,600
so I wanted to bring up supervision and supervisors and specifically, you know where your saying, you know, awareness.
141
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,180
Is key. What kind of.
142
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:58,030
What kind of support did you have in place for most supervisors,
143
00:15:58,030 --> 00:16:06,020
how did you approach talking to them about the different support that you might need or the different structures you might need?
144
00:16:06,020 --> 00:16:14,570
And you know, how willing were they to accommodate, I guess, is the word I'm looking for.
145
00:16:14,570 --> 00:16:23,320
So shall I go first? Yeah. Go for it Edward. So obviously, I've given everyone supervisor envy on this podcast before.
146
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,680
My supervisor Tom Hinton was wonderful about the whole thing.
147
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:35,350
I think what I actually put on the supervision agreement because it's very much a document at least at Exeter that you draft with your supervisor.
148
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:42,160
Was that Edward might misread social cues or.
149
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:50,470
Possibly be a little too blunt when he didn't mean to be very standard, almost stereotypical things, really,
150
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:59,290
but what tended to find was that sort of making a raising some awareness of that at the start was quite helpful in that.
151
00:16:59,290 --> 00:17:01,960
It's kind of a baseline, as we said,
152
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:10,660
where there's an expectation which then we probably both found ourselves tailoring without really thinking about the as the relationship evolved.
153
00:17:10,660 --> 00:17:15,880
Yeah. So it's not a particularly complex point to develop from what was being said a moment ago,
154
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:24,250
but it's the idea of being aware of being aware rather of your supervisor and the supervisor,
155
00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:31,330
being aware of what what they can do to help the supervisor work effectively with them as well.
156
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:39,040
That can make a big difference from the outset and. What about you, Jane, what was your experience?
157
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:46,180
It was a learning curve for both of us because I was as much in the dark really as they were.
158
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:53,290
I had no understanding or training. I didn't even really know what Asperger syndrome was.
159
00:17:53,290 --> 00:17:59,140
Apart from a few stereotypes that you see on TV, and we all know those can be wildly inaccurate.
160
00:17:59,140 --> 00:18:04,840
So we were all kind of learning together, and I think the whole process evolved over time.
161
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:14,200
I did have to change supervisors. And so that was part of the evolving that was part of the way that my degree changed over time.
162
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:24,930
That was part of my degree journey. And sometimes it was sometimes communication differences and things were they were quite nuanced,
163
00:18:24,930 --> 00:18:28,230
they were to do with the sort of conventions of academia.
164
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:36,600
So for example, situations where it's the academic convention to write in the margins to give helpful feedback.
165
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:42,060
So I would have written this paragraph using X source. I would have emphasised Y Point differently.
166
00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:50,160
There's a little missing piece of the puzzle in the autistic mind, sometimes where the cognitive jump as to why he's writing that doesn't.
167
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:56,100
It's not immediately obvious to us. I have come to understand over time logicking it out that, you know,
168
00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:03,720
he means you might like to try writing this paragraph using x source, and you might like to emphasise y point differently.
169
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,950
My initial reaction is to look at it and go, Well, of course you would. You're a different human being.
170
00:19:07,950 --> 00:19:16,260
You'd have written a different thing to me because we do have these little misunderstandings that you just have to kind of, you know,
171
00:19:16,260 --> 00:19:19,590
the first few times and logic out kind of longhand and think right now,
172
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:27,750
obviously it must mean that logically and then you come to an understanding and it becomes more commonplace, more kind of routine.
173
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:34,410
Yeah, I had a few, a few moments like that. I don't think my supervisor typically wrote I would have written it this way,
174
00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:40,800
but there certainly were versions of that along the lines of me kind of having to,
175
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:49,770
as you said, logic out something using the logical parts of your brain where somebody who is neurotypical might do that quote-unquote instinctively.
176
00:19:49,770 --> 00:19:53,400
So that's certainly an experience I can relate to as well. Mm-Hmm.
177
00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:01,050
So if I was struggling with a piece of feedback struggling to understand exactly what the change I should make really was,
178
00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:09,510
that could be difficult at times because my supervisor would then think, Well, this person is struggling because I'm being too harsh.
179
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:16,530
I need to moderate my tone more, I need to make the feedback more oblique and indirect, because otherwise it'll be too blunt.
180
00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:21,180
And of course, this is this is the opposite of of what would have really worked for the situation,
181
00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:28,080
because the more vague and oblique and indirect it becomes, the less easy to understand the actual objection is.
182
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,830
And so we all end up kind of missing each other in a way that was completely accidental and no one intends.
183
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:41,430
But that was the kind of miscommunication error that we had to kind of overcome in the course of the degree.
184
00:20:41,430 --> 00:20:45,670
Yeah. Did you find yourself almost having a meta dialogue about?
185
00:20:45,670 --> 00:20:52,210
That sort of form of communication and feedback and all that sort of stuff to kind of.
186
00:20:52,210 --> 00:20:56,230
Tease out what what was was and wasn't working for both of you, I guess.
187
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:59,560
I absolutely did with my supervisor. I think we did actually go on.
188
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:05,200
I did discuss that on a few occasions that he did. He did very helpfully clarify that for me, it was that it wasn't feedback on me.
189
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:11,800
It was what I what I'd written and how I could make it better because I have a tendency to take feedback very personally.
190
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:18,040
I encountered some resistance to that. Obviously, I'm not here on this podcast is single anybody out at all?
191
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:24,670
I'm just speaking honestly about it. Yes, there was some resistance from some quarters.
192
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:33,610
There was a sense that I was asking for something very unreasonable and that when I confessed I was having some trouble communicating,
193
00:21:33,610 --> 00:21:39,460
there was a general meeting held to sort of say, Well, this is just the requirements of the degree we can't accommodate.
194
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:44,100
It's got to be this way. So that was a little tough at first.
195
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:50,970
I can't pretend otherways about that part. But, you know, ultimately in the long run, it all kind of evolved and it did work in the long run.
196
00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:57,140
We all came to a better understanding of communication. Yeah, and I think that there's two things that are really important,
197
00:21:57,140 --> 00:22:03,380
and one is is the importance of communication within within this and that kind
198
00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:09,100
of meta dialogue or meta communication and actually openness because.
199
00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:16,210
It sounds like you can only unpick because we're not talking about something as simple here as to go back to that classic example.
200
00:22:16,210 --> 00:22:20,950
More time in an exam, we're talking about something much more subtle, a much more nuanced.
201
00:22:20,950 --> 00:22:26,950
Yeah. And it sounds like to me what you're saying is that need that needs unpicking.
202
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:32,750
Yeah, yeah. For that supervisory relationship to be able to work properly.
203
00:22:32,750 --> 00:22:37,750
It's like coming back to the awareness thing, even just knowing that that is on the table.
204
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:41,110
The kind of meta unpicking option is on the table.
205
00:22:41,110 --> 00:22:45,700
If you want it to have a conversation about, you know, how can we talk about how we're communicating here?
206
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:51,540
Is this working for you? Even just knowing that you could have that conversation is is helpful, I think,
207
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:56,690
and I think setting that up from the outset is a very a very if you're able to do that,
208
00:22:56,690 --> 00:23:03,340
it's a very positive thing to do, certainly with my supervision agreement I was fornature enough to have that in place from the outset.
209
00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:14,370
And I think I you know and this is something that I harp on about quite a lot about, quote unquote adjustments is that, you know?
210
00:23:14,370 --> 00:23:19,080
That, I would say, is good practise in any supervisory relationship.
211
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:26,900
I'm. It to be having those conversations about how you communicate and what works and what doesn't.
212
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:36,020
Because I it makes the learning experience much more effective, and this thing that I wanted to raise was, I think that Jane,
213
00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:38,390
you found something really crucial as well for me,
214
00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:46,670
which is that we have systems and processes and ways of doing which aren't like the not regulations.
215
00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:51,200
You know, they're not things that we have to do them all kind of cultural norms, really.
216
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:58,540
Yeah, the norms of the way that we do things and sometimes people find it really difficult to move outside of that.
217
00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:05,360
Well, that no, but that's the way that we do it, as if there's the fact that the way we do that, that's the way that we do.
218
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:16,820
It means it's the right way and the only way which we're just not in a realm of, of the right way and the only way in so much of this work.
219
00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:24,380
And I think that that's a really important recognition as well is that it's it's a challenge to the norms of the system.
220
00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:33,590
Yeah, it's being changed in the undergraduate realm I'm thinking here about undergraduate assessment is often being has been
221
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:38,060
radically changed in recent years in response to in response to COVID to change.
222
00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:43,070
Change is possible and change change does happen. Absolutely.
223
00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:48,960
But there's I think there is still a sense that the the Ph.D. as a.
224
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:59,190
As a higher degree is still being held to a lot of very traditional norms with a certain a certain set of expectations, be placed upon it.
225
00:24:59,190 --> 00:25:03,600
Excuse me, strange accent? Yes.
226
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:14,760
And I think that's really it's really important to recognise because the challenges to the system are crucial because it's challenging, you know?
227
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,710
Well, why? Why does it have to work that way? Why does it be assessed that way?
228
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:25,840
Why do we have to communicate that way? You know, why is it that that's the way that we do things?
229
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,910
And what? Why can't we do things differently?
230
00:25:29,910 --> 00:25:35,070
And there might be a valid answer to that question that might be that the viva is an important.
231
00:25:35,070 --> 00:25:36,120
The way that we typically do it,
232
00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:45,420
viva is an important step in making sure that we are able to prove authorship of the thesis and if they and in speech but equally,
233
00:25:45,420 --> 00:25:54,750
there are changes that we can make. Yeah. And I know that for instance, and what we've done at Exeter on adjustments for vivas, you know,
234
00:25:54,750 --> 00:26:02,550
it's been quite challenging because one of the things that often gets suggested by accessibility is, well, couldn't you have the questions in advance?
235
00:26:02,550 --> 00:26:09,250
And you go, Well, it's it's not a case of the questions are set in advance because it's a conversation.
236
00:26:09,250 --> 00:26:18,090
And so you can't you might be able to provide some of that, but you can't provide all of it's not the nature of of what the examination is,
237
00:26:18,090 --> 00:26:23,790
but there might be other accommodations that you could make that would provide the same level of support.
238
00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:30,120
For instance, I know I've had we've had students, for instance, who have stutters,
239
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:34,740
who have been who have been provided with some of the questions in advance so that they're
240
00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:40,290
able to write out responses so that if they are struggling to communicate within the viva
241
00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:46,080
that they have a response, but they only get that with, you know, within a certain time period or in advance and all this sort of stuff.
242
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:51,450
So there were there were rules around it, but it's not that the accommodations can't be made.
243
00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:59,700
It's just that they've got to, I guess, honour the nature of the examination whilst also not kind of.
244
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:04,230
I realise I'm contradicting myself slightly, because whilst also not kind of being,
245
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:08,320
you know, I don't think you're contradicting yourself, I understand what you're saying. Yeah.
246
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,840
No reasonable adjustments. I think that you're right, which is not really I mean,
247
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,740
that really resonates with me because I had an added complication on top of the autism I also was diagnosed with.
248
00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:24,660
Obsessive compulsive disorder was actually so severe that I was hospitalised
249
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:29,430
within the first few weeks of my PhD with it because it was it was quite extreme.
250
00:27:29,430 --> 00:27:36,000
So it has been very bad at certain points, and I know that that has added a layer of complication and difficulty,
251
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,870
which I mean is something that you can you can kind of anticipate as part of
252
00:27:39,870 --> 00:27:44,010
disability services because it is normal for some conditions to cluster together.
253
00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:50,550
We all know statistically that it's much more common for people on the autism spectrum to have a diagnosis of OCD.
254
00:27:50,550 --> 00:27:56,910
So the fact that some of these disorders come in clusters will come together. You know, it's not a surprising thing.
255
00:27:56,910 --> 00:27:59,580
Well, it is a whole other layer of complications to manage.
256
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:08,100
And I certainly was aware of the humorous irony, of a student trying to do a geography degree with periodic agoraphobia.
257
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:14,340
So attempting to be on location and studying a particular location was having some difficulty
258
00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:19,560
leaving the house due to intrusive thoughts because obsessive compulsive disorder can catch you that way.
259
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,960
Sometimes when it's when it's busy and I raise you autism in a modern foreign languages degree.
260
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:33,990
Oh, I know you think that that wasn't helpful to have ended up with a situation of, you know,
261
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:38,460
I'm going to I made out, obviously to my research location as often as I possibly could.
262
00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:45,180
But there were periods where the symptoms were very bad and it was difficult to get to conduct an interview, for example, face to face.
263
00:28:45,180 --> 00:28:51,600
And at that point, luckily, I say luckily in terms of a global pandemic, I wasn't lucky as such.
264
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,150
But you know, everyone was starting to move towards this more Zoom model of doing things.
265
00:28:57,150 --> 00:29:01,620
Everyone was understanding that there was a kind of online correlate way of doing things.
266
00:29:01,620 --> 00:29:10,380
And even though I acknowledged at the time, I understand that it's not as not necessarily as effective as being face to face my question at the
267
00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:16,470
time to the university authorities was can it be effective enough for me to make progress on my degree,
268
00:29:16,470 --> 00:29:24,000
even if we do a kind of online way that is not as superior, it's not necessarily as good as face to face.
269
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,230
Is it still 90 percent as good? Can we still make it as good as possible and it still be an accommodation that just about still works?
270
00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:35,520
And in the end, I did it half and half. I did some interviews face to face and I did some online.
271
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,120
And because of the COVID situation, that was becoming not unusual at that point.
272
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,250
So and I couldn't work in some circumstances.
273
00:29:44,250 --> 00:29:49,830
And I think that that in some ways is, you know, not not to in any way make light of a global pandemic.
274
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:55,950
But that is some of the advances that COVID has given us is those sorts of things where we've gone will know it's it's inferior.
275
00:29:55,950 --> 00:30:04,410
It's not the same. It's not as good. We're not going to try or accommodate it because we were all forced into an environment where we had to actually,
276
00:30:04,410 --> 00:30:14,550
like you say, we've realised actually, you know what is 90 percent is good, actually, that's still valid and still useful and still,
277
00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:19,400
you know, helps us to create knowledge and do these things.
278
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,410
It still has worth just because it's the same doesn't mean it's not.
279
00:30:25,410 --> 00:30:26,640
It's not worthwhile.
280
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:33,990
I would challenge anyone looking at the side-by-side transcripts of the interviews done face to face and the interviews that I did online.
281
00:30:33,990 --> 00:30:37,560
I would really challenge anyone to see much of a difference in those.
282
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:43,410
I think we used a tiny bit of the kind of nuance of communication, facial expressions, body language.
283
00:30:43,410 --> 00:30:50,460
However, for an autistic student, I did kind of point out in my degree when I reflected on how it had gone and said maybe for autistic students,
284
00:30:50,460 --> 00:30:56,610
that's not as big a loss that we might not have been looking at that very well anyway.
285
00:30:56,610 --> 00:31:05,040
So, yeah, 90 percent as good, you know? So the.
286
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,400
I guess my next question is about what were the real challenges that you experienced
287
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,730
throughout the process of doing a research degree as someone who was neurodivergent,
288
00:31:15,730 --> 00:31:23,100
are there particular pinch points in the process like the Viva or was it just like you, said Jane.
289
00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:29,430
When you know these are in some ways fluctuating kind of symptoms and fluctuating effect on your life?
290
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:32,370
And so if you will be like, you know,
291
00:31:32,370 --> 00:31:40,300
you said about when your OCD was particularly bad that you know that that causes of the knock on effect and challenges in your studies.
292
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:49,080
I just wondered kind of. Yeah, I guess for you in your experience, what the big challenges were.
293
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:55,320
Yes. For the kind of OCD aspect of it certainly made concentration a little harder.
294
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:02,370
You know, I was still able to produce a good result and like you say, sometimes you get the good result by atypical means.
295
00:32:02,370 --> 00:32:09,450
I think it slowed me down a little. I think that it was hard, harder to concentrate with intrusive thoughts causing a problem.
296
00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:17,700
But you know, you still get there in the end, you find ways of working around it, even if it goes a little bit slower than the conventional timetable.
297
00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:22,650
You can still get that. Yeah, that that for me was challenging.
298
00:32:22,650 --> 00:32:27,810
That was that was hard to bear sometimes because I didn't want to be dealing with it.
299
00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:33,660
You know, nobody else wanted me to be dealing with it. I was just. Whereas I think so.
300
00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:40,050
The analogy that's often used for having a neurodivergent condition is that you're
301
00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:43,350
running on a slightly different operating system than the rest of the world.
302
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:47,700
So most of the world is running on Microsoft and you're kind of running on Linux.
303
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:53,130
You might still you might use slightly different means to achieve the same tasks.
304
00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:57,750
OCD is more like a virus. OCD is more like a computer virus. It's not like an operating system.
305
00:32:57,750 --> 00:33:01,740
It's it's like something that stops the functioning of the system.
306
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:05,210
So where's autism at something that can be worked with in academia?
307
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:09,180
It can be really autism friendly. The OCD wasn't as much.
308
00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:14,220
That's a really, really interesting point, actually, and not one,
309
00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:19,950
not an angle that I I've thought about before, but certainly from an autism perspective.
310
00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:31,140
Your your brain running on a different OS is a very powerful model to take, and it's probably worth saying you mentioned some of the challenges,
311
00:33:31,140 --> 00:33:38,910
and I think I can echo the challenges coming up at certain points and being created by things other than necessarily purely PhD related things.
312
00:33:38,910 --> 00:33:46,620
So, for example, I really struggled living in a shared house in my first few months of the PhD,
313
00:33:46,620 --> 00:33:52,470
which is actually what kicked me into getting some autism support in the first place.
314
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:57,840
But you mention that academia can also be autism friendly.
315
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:05,490
And you're right in that if if autistic people can be running Linux when everyone else is running Windows,
316
00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:13,590
that means that you can do a lot of things much more efficiently than than other people can accept.
317
00:34:13,590 --> 00:34:19,170
Then you'll sometimes ask to do something that's really easy to do in windows, and you have to go, Oh no, hang on I've got to open up the terminal here.
318
00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:31,770
Just just, yeah, yeah. How far does this analogy extend? As brilliant as always, as a non Linux user, I'm already confused.
319
00:34:31,770 --> 00:34:36,990
So. And I find that analogy really helpful.
320
00:34:36,990 --> 00:34:47,620
Like, I think that it really clarifies it and the way to the extent to which you've taken Edward really helps, kind of.
321
00:34:47,620 --> 00:34:56,260
Understand what the challenges are and let you see how some things might be more efficient, also easier.
322
00:34:56,260 --> 00:34:59,470
But then things that seem might be simple, as you said,
323
00:34:59,470 --> 00:35:06,550
simple in windows and then actually more complicated in Linux because we're continuing with this analogy.
324
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:13,320
I wondered what? Based on the kind of the challenges and particularly.
325
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,010
What you seem to be saying is, is kind of it's it's.
326
00:35:17,010 --> 00:35:24,090
It's less about the process of doing the research degree and more about kind of basically how life intersects with it.
327
00:35:24,090 --> 00:35:32,640
You know, life happens and, you know, in whatever form and that creates, you know, challenges.
328
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:42,060
What advice would you have for supervisors in supporting neurodivergent students?
329
00:35:42,060 --> 00:35:46,440
With these challenges, shall I go first on this one?
330
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:52,770
Yeah, go for it. I think the main piece of advice I'd give supervises.
331
00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:58,460
It would be. Empathy.
332
00:35:58,460 --> 00:36:08,510
This sounds like a really obvious point to make, but being willing and able to listen from the start can make a huge difference,
333
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:14,720
both in making the supervisor feel comfortable and ultimately new as a supervisor,
334
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:20,360
making what's probably going to be a significant investment of your time over the next sort of three,
335
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:26,790
three and a half, four years or longer, it'll work better and work more productively.
336
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:37,880
So being willing from the outset to listen and to engage in what we call the meta dialogue earlier can make a huge difference,
337
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,130
I think, from from the outset. So anything you wants to add to that, right?
338
00:36:43,130 --> 00:36:50,450
Oh, right. Yes. I think it comes back to a lot of what we were saying earlier about the willingness to communicate.
339
00:36:50,450 --> 00:36:57,230
I think what you made with some great points there, what I think empathy is certainly something that would be helpful and their willingness to
340
00:36:57,230 --> 00:37:02,210
communicate and the willingness to talk like you was saying on that meta level as well,
341
00:37:02,210 --> 00:37:11,390
to communicate about communicating, to ask, how is it going to actually ask what kind of ways of getting an idea together would be the most helpful?
342
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:18,470
And if the current ones that we're using are working, you know, so you even just being able to talk on that meta level is also useful.
343
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:25,010
But I found that the raising awareness and simply laying out kind of expectations
344
00:37:25,010 --> 00:37:29,390
or laying out an understanding of autism was at the beginning of things.
345
00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:32,270
It does change the whole dynamic. It does change the whole tone.
346
00:37:32,270 --> 00:37:38,990
If you go into it knowing that that's something that is going to be in the room with you, that you have to manage.
347
00:37:38,990 --> 00:37:45,520
You know, it no longer surprises people. People understand that if your eye contact, for example, is a little bit off to the left,
348
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:52,160
no, it's not a sign that something is wrong or that someone is uncomfortable. It's just what's normal for that student.
349
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,430
It really does make a huge difference as we sort of.
350
00:37:57,430 --> 00:38:07,160
Bring us up to a close, I wondered, actually if we could flip that around from advice to supervisors, what advice would you have for?
351
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:14,810
Either the current neurodivergent PGRs or people who are neurodivergent, who are considering doing a research degree.
352
00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:23,780
We got any kind of things that you wish you knew or kind of advice that you wish you'd been given at that point in time.
353
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:28,340
Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to this kind of self-knowledge, like knowledge is power.
354
00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:33,140
The more you can articulate what's going on in your head, the more you can communicate.
355
00:38:33,140 --> 00:38:34,970
I know ironically, this is about autism,
356
00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:43,370
but the more that you can communicate your needs and the way that you operates and what kind of things that you need from others,
357
00:38:43,370 --> 00:38:53,120
you know, that's very helpful. Read up on your condition. Ask others or attend the very helpful support group that they have here at Exeter.
358
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,860
You know, that's very useful stuff.
359
00:38:54,860 --> 00:39:00,770
You connect with other people who have the same condition that you have and see what kind of commonalities you've got.
360
00:39:00,770 --> 00:39:06,080
And then, you know, that's a helpful springboard to work from because the more you know about yourself and your needs,
361
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:15,380
the more you can advocate and the more you can be precise and clear about what it is you're going to need during the course of your degree.
362
00:39:15,380 --> 00:39:21,420
I actually found a role for myself within the social group, which was sort of.
363
00:39:21,420 --> 00:39:27,600
Almost somewhere between a facilitator and a member, I suppose, I mean, I might be misreading that somewhat,
364
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:34,650
but I ended up I ended up running a kind of an informal autism lending library whereby all the books applied over the previous years.
365
00:39:34,650 --> 00:39:38,130
I just lent them out to autistic undergrads did, too.
366
00:39:38,130 --> 00:39:42,340
I took home a couple from you once. Oh, you're pretty sure. I think I did.
367
00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:46,920
Yeah. Did I get them back. Oh, oh no.
368
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:53,640
That's that's a challenging question. I'm quite sure that it's pretty sure I'm quite conscientious about that
369
00:39:53,640 --> 00:40:06,280
And if not, I've got the spreadsheet. But the the I would give to to students incoming PGRs is
370
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:15,880
Not just know as much about yourself as possible, but but certainly I echo a lot of of what Jane says about going to support groups,
371
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,690
even if you don't think at the start that you necessarily need them.
372
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:32,210
It was a the university made it very easy, but it was inherently an unpleasant experience having to go in my second term in Exeter.
373
00:40:32,210 --> 00:40:40,040
Falling as it felt to well-being, saying, Hi, I'm a 25 year old.
374
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:46,400
Researcher who sits somewhere awkwardly between staff and a student, you know,
375
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:57,700
but I'm struggling with something that feels like all the undergrads just get. Help us in the all the undergrads get full stop help exclamation mark.
376
00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:06,520
So what what I would say is get the get the support mechanisms set up as soon as possible.
377
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,150
It's it's it's something I say to undergraduate students actually,
378
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:19,150
as a personal tutor now is if you know that you might benefit from support, put the steps to get it in place way.
379
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:25,360
Put put the steps underway now rather than waiting for a crisis because you will make your life
380
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:33,040
so much easier if you are comfortable and if you are aware of what might happen before it does.
381
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:40,650
Yeah, because. And neurodivergent conditions will.
382
00:41:40,650 --> 00:41:42,840
Make your experience different,
383
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:51,990
and the earlier that you can acknowledge that and lean into both how that can make you experience good and also how we can.
384
00:41:51,990 --> 00:41:57,240
Create problems that you'll need to deal with the better. Yeah, yeah.
385
00:41:57,240 --> 00:42:01,620
I mean, I would add even things like communicating on academic Twitter can be helpful.
386
00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:05,610
There is a little group of neurodiverse PhDs on there.
387
00:42:05,610 --> 00:42:13,080
We share tips. We share information. And like you say, even if you don't think you're going to need a kind of support group scenario,
388
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:20,070
even if you don't think that you've got a particular interest in socialising with your own people,
389
00:42:20,070 --> 00:42:28,380
even if you, you know, even if you don't think that's of particular interest to you, you'd rather cluster around an interest or about something else.
390
00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:35,310
There were light bulb moments at the autism sort of social group at Exeter that I have.
391
00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:38,580
I think we were out on a social trip to the bowling or something.
392
00:42:38,580 --> 00:42:43,680
We were all walking down the road together and I looked around and was like, Wait a minute, we've all got the same walk.
393
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:50,340
How does this happen? These moments of like, we've all got these particular commonalities.
394
00:42:50,340 --> 00:42:55,080
You know, we will do this thing the same way we all think about this thing the same way.
395
00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:02,040
And I was this little light bulb moment where I have realisations about myself and about the way I worked that I found helpful.
396
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:08,580
Oh, for me with trying to work out how many how much of the surface area of Devon you could cover if you took all of the baked beans that ever been made?
397
00:43:08,580 --> 00:43:18,130
We did the maths on it all classic. Yeah, in a hundred and forty years, no 400 years to cover Devon in baked beans.
398
00:43:18,130 --> 00:43:27,700
I am afraid I'm going to have to draw us to an end. Thank you both so much for your time and your candour.
399
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:42,180
And and just for sharing your experience because I think like, you know, you're both saying about awareness and about.
400
00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:51,300
About learning from others and all of those sorts of things, and I think that hopefully for anybody listening that this will be really useful.
401
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:56,040
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe.
402
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:23,157
And join me. Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
Wednesday Feb 23, 2022
Dealing with failure
Wednesday Feb 23, 2022
Wednesday Feb 23, 2022
In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Catherine Talbot, Lecturer in Pyschology at Bournemouth University about dealing with failure and rejections.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens.
2
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,530
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.
3
00:00:25,530 --> 00:00:36,190
Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In-betweens.
4
00:00:36,190 --> 00:00:44,590
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and this episode, I think, is possibly one of our most important episodes so far.
5
00:00:44,590 --> 00:00:50,380
So in this episode, I'm going to be talking to one of our wonderful doctoral graduates from the University of Exeter,
6
00:00:50,380 --> 00:00:56,650
Dr. Catherine Talbot, who is now a lecturer in psychology at the University of Bournemouth.
7
00:00:56,650 --> 00:01:06,580
All about failure and rejection, and about how it's perhaps unseen and under-discussed area of academic life.
8
00:01:06,580 --> 00:01:13,420
And one we hope by the end of this conversation, we can normalise a little bit for you.
9
00:01:13,420 --> 00:01:23,890
Yes. So my name is Catherine Talbot, and I actually did my Ph.D. at the University of Exeter and finished a few years ago in medical studies,
10
00:01:23,890 --> 00:01:28,750
and now I'm a lecturer in psychology at Bournemouth University.
11
00:01:28,750 --> 00:01:37,780
Most of my research is in the area of cyber psychology, so I specifically focus on social media and how people with dementia use it,
12
00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:42,730
the barriers they face, the challenges and also the benefits. So.
13
00:01:42,730 --> 00:01:51,730
What we're going to talk about is failure and rejection, and we're going to sort of undermine those terms as we talk.
14
00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:58,420
But, you know, acknowledging I think that for a lot of people that by the time they get to a research degree,
15
00:01:58,420 --> 00:02:01,390
they tend to have been high flyers throughout their academic education,
16
00:02:01,390 --> 00:02:07,060
and they tend to have been people that have done really well and been really successful and not
17
00:02:07,060 --> 00:02:16,210
necessarily having had experience of quote unquote failing or being rejected for something.
18
00:02:16,210 --> 00:02:21,730
And then when that does start to happen through publications, through funding,
19
00:02:21,730 --> 00:02:26,770
through conferences, various different things, it can be a really difficult thing.
20
00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:35,530
But at the same time, it's. It is a kind of cornerstone of the academic experience.
21
00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:45,160
So I wondered if you could say something about your kind of first your first experiences of of sort of failure or rejection as an academic,
22
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:55,660
whether as a Ph.D. student or as a lecturer. And really what that what it was and what that felt like to you, if that's OK.
23
00:02:55,660 --> 00:03:03,970
Yeah, of course. I guess by now, I feel a bit like an expert in failure and rejection, to be honest.
24
00:03:03,970 --> 00:03:07,900
So I just really identify with what you were saying.
25
00:03:07,900 --> 00:03:13,180
So when I first came to my research programme was a Ph.D. student.
26
00:03:13,180 --> 00:03:17,590
You know, I'd done really well at university. I had a placement.
27
00:03:17,590 --> 00:03:21,310
Year, I was looking to publish a paper. All very exciting stuff.
28
00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:25,630
So I didn't really have that experience of rejection.
29
00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:33,100
And then it came to my p h d and submitted the paper to a journal for the first time.
30
00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:42,250
And yeah, just having the reviewers comments back and then really just really tearing that paper apart.
31
00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:46,390
It's something that I just put my heart and my soul into.
32
00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:55,360
And I remember receiving those comments and just crying, just go and having a little cry and thinking, I'm the worst researcher ever.
33
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:59,470
I can't do this. I'm going to fail my PhD
34
00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:05,320
Everyone, you know, and just completely catastrophize and really from there.
35
00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,790
So, yeah, I just I've got much better at dealing with that now.
36
00:04:09,790 --> 00:04:16,720
Yeah, I you're saying now I'm remembering this always comes back to my memory randomly the first time.
37
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:29,260
And so when I started my research degree, I submitted part of Masters for publication at my sort of supervisor's suggestion and it got rejected.
38
00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:34,780
And I read about two sentences of that feedback.
39
00:04:34,780 --> 00:04:41,800
And it was it felt so brutal. I didn't want to read anymore, so I filed it in my email.
40
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:48,280
And by the time I got up, the courage to try and read it it had been archived and I couldn't get it back.
41
00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,560
So I never actually read the feedback.
42
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:57,100
I just literally like, I couldn't handle it, so I dug my head in the sand just as like, No, I'm not going to deal with this I'm not
43
00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:05,290
gonna think about it, which it's very difficult, but it is so, so difficult, especially how those emails start as well.
44
00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:10,180
You just think, Oh, I'm rubbish, I'm the worst. Yes. And it very much.
45
00:05:10,180 --> 00:05:12,100
And that's the thing. I think it's it's twofold.
46
00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:20,560
It very much feels like a personal failure and you and catastrophizing what you say, you think, Oh, I'm not going to I can't do this.
47
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:25,240
I can't do it because, you know, because of this one thing where they've said, No, not this time.
48
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:37,540
Essentially, you know, you feel like everything is over and you can't do any of it, which of course, is not true, but it feels so real at the time.
49
00:05:37,540 --> 00:05:42,240
It feels so overwhelming. Yeah, definitely.
50
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:48,060
And also, you do I've noticed I do tend to focus on the negatives as well that are in there.
51
00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:57,630
So even if I receive well as an example, actually, I wrote a paper recently which got accepted for publication,
52
00:05:57,630 --> 00:06:04,260
but I didn't actually realise it had been accepted because I picked up on all of the negative comments within the review.
53
00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:07,620
I didn't read that one sentence that was like, If you make these changes,
54
00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:18,680
I'm happy to accept that it just it says something really significant about our mindset and and the way that we're that,
55
00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:23,670
the way that we're both used to and respond to critique.
56
00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:29,840
We're all it's that kind of perfectionism and imposter syndrome. I think like we're always assuming that we're going to get found out.
57
00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:37,150
And so we're always trying to like looking for the negatives or looking for the flaws and not necessarily looking for the sentence that says.
58
00:06:37,150 --> 00:06:43,010
We want to accept this for publication. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
59
00:06:43,010 --> 00:06:52,150
Always looking for that critique and that criticism. And I think it is important to go back to the idea of.
60
00:06:52,150 --> 00:06:57,580
Of it feeling like a a personal failure, because one of the things I always try and say to people is,
61
00:06:57,580 --> 00:07:04,330
you know, you have to try and and I'm not saying I can't do this or I'm good at it, by the way,
62
00:07:04,330 --> 00:07:11,440
but you have to try and take a step back and realise that even though you put your heart and
63
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:18,250
soul and all of this work into your publications or applications or anything that you're doing,
64
00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:21,250
that is not you, and that is not the sum of you.
65
00:07:21,250 --> 00:07:28,600
And so when that is rejected, whatever reason, that isn't a rejection of you, it's a rejection of whatever is on that piece of paper.
66
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:39,280
The tiniest snapshot. Yeah, I agree. And it can just feel so personal that this is an issue with you as a person, as you as a student as well,
67
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,800
when actually, you know, they're just critically appraising the work, which is what they're meant to do.
68
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:50,720
And there will be some good bits in that. And usually reviews do add some nice little positive bits as well,
69
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:58,390
or ultimately just seeing This as right, I can take this information and I can go and improve my work.
70
00:07:58,390 --> 00:08:07,690
And because people, they have taken the time to, to look at your work, to engage with that and to provide comprehensive feedback.
71
00:08:07,690 --> 00:08:14,910
So they're viewing it more in that way as well. But I think what you said there, Kelly, and was really interesting actually,
72
00:08:14,910 --> 00:08:20,230
because I think maybe this relates to how we see ourselves as Ph.D. students as well,
73
00:08:20,230 --> 00:08:28,390
because I know at that point in my life that was such a big part of who I was as a person was the name of a Ph.D. student.
74
00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:36,160
And that's kind of how I evaluated myself. So when having that negative feedback or that experience of rejection,
75
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,890
it can be quite hard not to take it personally because that's such a big part of who you are.
76
00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:49,990
So like I was saying at the start, I think if you're if you've been, like, really academically successful.
77
00:08:49,990 --> 00:08:58,720
And most people, you know, that come of certainly through a traditional route to a research degree or a PhD have been
78
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:06,100
you're not you're not used to it, you're not used to not doing well at things and it's a privileged position to be in.
79
00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:18,650
But it's still, you know, it's a learning process of how to deal with critique and how to deal with rejection and how to turn that into.
80
00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:21,740
Into the positive that you're talking about, actually turn that into a.
81
00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:31,050
How do I use this to improve my work to make it better rather than just going kind of falling into an existential hole of.
82
00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:35,580
Why am I doing this, why aren't you know? I'm not I'm not good enough to do this.
83
00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:45,850
I'm. So. I wonder if you could say a little bit about how, you know, a few years on.
84
00:09:45,850 --> 00:09:51,000
How you deal with any kind of failure or rejection?
85
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:58,680
In your professional life now, like, you know, compared to that first paper when you started the Ph.D.
86
00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:06,180
If you have something now, what do you do? How do you try and and and respond to it in perhaps a more positive way?
87
00:10:06,180 --> 00:10:10,980
And how and how do you cope with the emotions that you feel associated with it?
88
00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:23,730
Yeah. So it is difficult. And I will say that I think I've got better with time and just kind of as you get more experience of it and this rejection,
89
00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:31,110
unfortunately being quite a normal part of academia, you do. You do you kind of get a little bit used to it, I guess.
90
00:10:31,110 --> 00:10:37,230
But it's still hard when you spend lots of time on something and you've got that rejection.
91
00:10:37,230 --> 00:10:43,680
And you know, initially what I found is I do feel upset or I feel angry.
92
00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:48,750
So what I do is I read through the rejection letter, so if it's a paper,
93
00:10:48,750 --> 00:10:54,990
I'll look through the reviews and then I'll just allow myself to feel the emotions that I'm feeling right.
94
00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:59,970
We shouldn't be suppressing those emotions just accept how I'm feeling.
95
00:10:59,970 --> 00:11:03,870
And then I just move those reviews to a different folder in my inbox.
96
00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:13,260
And I think, right, I'll return to those in a couple of days. And what I found actually is that when I return to that, those reviews in a few days,
97
00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:21,210
they seem they make a lot more sense and they, you know, they seem a bit kinder than when I initially read them.
98
00:11:21,210 --> 00:11:25,930
So I find that is one helpful thing to do.
99
00:11:25,930 --> 00:11:35,800
Yeah, I think that's really crucial and really important is letting yourself feel that and letting yourself have an emotional response to it,
100
00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,890
particularly as you put so much into, you know,
101
00:11:38,890 --> 00:11:46,270
whether you're writing an article or you're putting together a funding application, you know, these are colossal pieces of work.
102
00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:59,780
And you dedicate a huge amount of time amd yourself to and to then get that email, as it tends to be now that says no is it's really hard.
103
00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:07,600
And as you as you rightfully said, unfortunately, it is a sort of no, it's a normal thing in academic life.
104
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:20,260
It's the mainstay, you know? The nature of what we do is you try things, whether that's, you know.
105
00:12:20,260 --> 00:12:25,540
Particular research or, you know, trying to publish something or trying to get some funding.
106
00:12:25,540 --> 00:12:31,670
You know, you try things, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and.
107
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:41,250
Given how competitive it is, unfortunately, you tend to lose more than you win, and that's normal.
108
00:12:41,250 --> 00:12:51,930
Yeah, I was going to just add to that, actually, that I've have, and this is the same for professors and, you know, world leaders in the field.
109
00:12:51,930 --> 00:13:01,820
They have admitted they have had far more grants rejected than they've had accepted, and that's certainly the case for me.
110
00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:08,250
And you know, it's just the nature of it, and it's about almost being able to just dust yourself off and say,
111
00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:14,830
Right, what can I do with this information to improve and to succeed in the future?
112
00:13:14,830 --> 00:13:24,490
Absolutely, because there will be something in there, some nugget of wisdom that you can take forward with you to the next one.
113
00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:29,720
And you know, it is a little bit of a revolving door of.
114
00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:37,980
Right. Not that journal. Let's look at the feedback. Let's look what they said unless, you know, let's try again somewhere else.
115
00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:42,120
And it is a bit like that, and sometimes it's just it's not it's not the right place,
116
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,830
it's not the right time, you know, if the research isn't quite developed and you know,
117
00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:51,600
the ideas aren't quite developed enough, it's all sorts, all sorts of reasons,
118
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:58,680
none of which are anything to do with you or your ability as a researcher.
119
00:13:58,680 --> 00:13:59,970
Yeah, I was just going to add as well.
120
00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:06,870
There is it's also recognised in that there is that element of luck there as well, and that's something I've certainly found.
121
00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:11,520
So as a qualitative researcher submitted to journals,
122
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:21,300
it's the most frustrating thing where you get someone who uses quantitative methods reviewing your stuff and just doesn't understand it and therefore,
123
00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:28,890
you know, suggests that it's rejected and then it gets rejected. So maybe also think about is, is this fair?
124
00:14:28,890 --> 00:14:33,220
Is it is it fair or is it that I need to find somewhere else to send this somewhere?
125
00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:37,120
That's and what I'm doing a little bit more.
126
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:45,220
And like you say, you know. There's an element of luck in this and timing.
127
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,700
There's an element of I mean, it's hugely competitive,
128
00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:57,730
I remember when I was an undergrad applying for funding for my masters and I applied to the Arts Humanities Research Council,
129
00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:05,590
the AHRC for funding and my application got rated excellent priority for an award.
130
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:11,570
And I did not get any money because the.
131
00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:20,850
There were so many applicants. I was just going to say it is just so competitive with all of these grants fellowships,
132
00:15:20,850 --> 00:15:28,380
and there's lots of really excellent researchers all applying for the same funding with excellent proposals.
133
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:34,650
And just the chance of success is so, so low. Yeah, and that's.
134
00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:42,690
And I say that not to discourage people, but just just to recognise the reality of it, and I say the same with academic jobs as well.
135
00:15:42,690 --> 00:15:48,870
You know, I see a lot of of PGRs coming through and applying for postdocs or for lectureship.
136
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:53,760
And not getting interviews or getting interviews and not getting the roles and saying,
137
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:58,500
Oh, you know, they gave it to someone and they've got more publications.
138
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:03,360
than me they've done this many more conference presentations or they had funding for that,
139
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,210
you know, and kind of starting to do this, do this exercise of right.
140
00:16:09,210 --> 00:16:14,730
These are the things I've done and these are the things that they've done. And these are all the ways they've done things.
141
00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:17,430
They've done more things than I have done better things than I have.
142
00:16:17,430 --> 00:16:23,040
And the thing that always strikes me when people do that is that they write this list of all the things somebody
143
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:29,760
else has done that they haven't and they don't think about the things that they've done that somebody else hasn't.
144
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,770
And the experience that they have that somebody else doesn't.
145
00:16:31,770 --> 00:16:40,630
They totally devalue what they have and go, well, that person's better because they've done X, Y and Z, and I haven't done that.
146
00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:49,090
That's such a good point. I'm definitely guilty of that. It's and it's hard not to do it.
147
00:16:49,090 --> 00:16:54,340
But, you know, there's all sorts of reasons why that person might be the person that gets a job over you
148
00:16:54,340 --> 00:16:57,620
They may have all of these things because they're not because they're further along.
149
00:16:57,620 --> 00:17:02,050
You know, they may be three years out of their research degree and you're only one.
150
00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:07,630
So they've they had more experience. They've had more time. You know, that's not a reflection on you.
151
00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:12,950
That's just the reality of having had more time to develop these things.
152
00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:19,400
But exactly, and we can't just judge people just based on these singular criteria,
153
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:27,110
when we're all very different, I guess different disciplines, we have different approaches to doing research.
154
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:31,250
You just can't really compare yourself. I don't think either. No.
155
00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:39,010
And it's it's, you know, it's like we said about the kind of, you know, an article or an application being a snapshot, you know, a job application.
156
00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:48,090
Again, it's just a snapshot. What? What's on? A piece of paper or an online form is not the sum of everything that you are.
157
00:17:48,090 --> 00:17:56,990
And somebody has got to make a judgement based on what is what they have in front of them, which is.
158
00:17:56,990 --> 00:18:07,220
So far from the sum of its parts, you know, it's so far from representative of all that that person is and all that they do.
159
00:18:07,220 --> 00:18:16,440
And so they're not, you know, they're not judging. That person is better than Person B, they're
160
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,250
Looking at what they've got on a piece of paper to make a decision,
161
00:18:20,250 --> 00:18:25,860
and it's not a judgement on an individual, and it doesn't mean that that person's better than you.
162
00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:31,950
It just means that you say they fit a set of criteria and it was it was on the form that they needed.
163
00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:40,780
You know, it's. It's it's a strange way to make decisions, but it is nonetheless the way that we do it.
164
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:49,780
Yeah, exactly. I mean, just on that point about jobs, I guess before my first postdoc, I applied well.
165
00:18:49,780 --> 00:18:54,490
I had interviews for three positions before actually getting that one.
166
00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:59,830
So getting rejected from these positions is completely normal.
167
00:18:59,830 --> 00:19:08,380
And actually, I think some of it as well is learning what to expect in an interview and actually learning how to write those job applications,
168
00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:13,720
which I've certainly got better at now and how to emphasise your skills and how to
169
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,580
show that you do fit this criteria so that when a person goes through those forms,
170
00:19:18,580 --> 00:19:21,190
they can just say yes, they meet this criteria.
171
00:19:21,190 --> 00:19:28,650
Yes, they've published paper and just really trying to sell yourself, I guess, in the best possible way.
172
00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:34,630
And try and capture what you know that.
173
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:41,830
That thing that makes you unique. You know, the thing that you know so and so might have X number more publications than you.
174
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:46,990
But what do you have that they don't? Do you have more teaching experience that they than they do?
175
00:19:46,990 --> 00:19:50,830
Because actually, if you're applying for an academic role that might,
176
00:19:50,830 --> 00:19:58,050
depending on what the need is in the department at that time, that might be more valuable to them.
177
00:19:58,050 --> 00:20:06,910
Yeah, exactly. Such a good point. And also, when applying for the postdoc, your topic area might be a better fit than someone else.
178
00:20:06,910 --> 00:20:07,980
And you know,
179
00:20:07,980 --> 00:20:17,880
it's and also in terms of what other skills do you have in terms of networking and what kind of what wider network do you bring to the role?
180
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,470
You might have some fantastic contacts and collaborations.
181
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:29,740
Do you have experience with science communication and think about those other skills as well that aren't just publications,
182
00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:37,710
because especially if you're applying for a postdoc, you'll be publishing while doing the postdoc and you will get guidance and advice on that.
183
00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:45,040
Absolutely, and you know, it's important to remember that with all of these activities, none of it is a finished product.
184
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:55,460
You know, it's not a finished researcher, you know, putting a box tied up with a bow, perfect number of publications perfect number of
185
00:20:55,460 --> 00:21:02,740
postdocs held. It's it's all a process, and you will develop within whatever role.
186
00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,460
You end up getting on you,
187
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:09,700
and that will give you the opportunity to develop these things and to develop
188
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:16,220
your publications and build from the bits of and all of these sorts of things.
189
00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:23,340
I wondered if you could say something about what I guess what you've learnt.
190
00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:27,810
From the process of failure, so, you know, we've said it's a common part of the academic experience.
191
00:21:27,810 --> 00:21:33,460
You get rejected and you get rejected more times than you'll get accepted.
192
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:39,770
But so what have you learnt along the way?
193
00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:50,860
So while we've already touched on not taking it too personally, I've I've learnt that I've also learnt about it being a common experience.
194
00:21:50,860 --> 00:22:01,310
So for example, I've recently started collaborating with this amazing big deal researcher and they were sharing their experiences
195
00:22:01,310 --> 00:22:07,970
of failure actually and talking about all of these grants they've submitted and none of them getting funded.
196
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:10,010
And I thought, Wow, OK,
197
00:22:10,010 --> 00:22:18,410
so it actually is a common experience that people who are these superstars are also experiencing it too I think that that's really important.
198
00:22:18,410 --> 00:22:27,770
And so there being an openness and talking about failure is really important because the more we talk about it,
199
00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:32,890
the more we normalise it and the more we create an environment that says, actually,
200
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:41,100
you know, this is normal, this is something we're going to go through and.
201
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:51,960
There are ways there are ways to cope with it. And you know that you have a community around you who've been through exactly the same things.
202
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:57,360
Yeah, exactly, and I guess that's something that I try to talk about on academic Twitter.
203
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,550
quite a bit is talking about experiences of rejection and being quite open about that.
204
00:23:02,550 --> 00:23:09,490
I mean, don't get me wrong, sometimes academic Twitter can make you feel quite rubbish because you see all of these people doing amazing things.
205
00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:17,160
And I sometimes think, Oh, I'm not doing that. But there are a lot of people speaking openly about rejection and failure on that,
206
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,990
and it's such a good community, particularly for PhD students, I think.
207
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:25,510
So definitely recommend making use of that. Yeah.
208
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:36,600
And like let you say, I mean, because Twitter has historically been a kind of a publicity tool, let's say, for for academics.
209
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,170
It can make you feel inferior.
210
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:48,640
But but increasingly, there's more and more discussion of the realities, I guess, of being an academic and things like failure.
211
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,310
And there's been an increase we've seen in people publishing failure CVs
212
00:23:53,310 --> 00:24:00,660
So the kind of opposite of a CV, all of the things that you failed at all of the things that you've been rejected from.
213
00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:09,090
To kind of bring to the surface, actually the thing the thing that you would submit to, you know, for a job application is all the positive things.
214
00:24:09,090 --> 00:24:12,720
But like you say, there's all of the kind of.
215
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:20,160
The rejections and the failures behind that which outnumber, you know, the things that you would put on a CV for an employer.
216
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:32,280
And I think that that's it's just really healthy to be for people to be sharing that openly and making it clear.
217
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,110
This is normal, I'm not just saying it's normal,
218
00:24:34,110 --> 00:24:44,410
but like you were saying with working with a more senior researcher really showing and demonstrating in reality that his perfectly normal.
219
00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:52,360
Yeah, exactly, and I think what I've learnt the most is you've got to keep them up your motivation so that it can be so hard.
220
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,760
But if you've got a grant application that hasn't been funded, yeah, that's rubbish.
221
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:02,110
But think right? Where can I send this now? What is that?
222
00:25:02,110 --> 00:25:08,020
That's still useful. That will help me to grow as a researcher and really improve my skills.
223
00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:17,060
How can we still do this despite this rejection, are there other avenues and really thinking about those sort of things?
224
00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:22,790
You know, if you if you submit an article to a journal,
225
00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:30,090
the worst thing that happens is that you're going to be outright rejected, but you will get feedback.
226
00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:40,230
On how to improve. So there's always that kind of sense of of being able to move, move it forward.
227
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:46,590
Yeah, and I didn't realise it as well, that people say, who do these reviews generally,
228
00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:53,940
I'm not going to say often, but generally people do want to be constructive and they do want to help.
229
00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:59,190
And there is this push as well now to be a lot kinder in reviews as well.
230
00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:05,230
So I know a lot of editors are giving that as outright guidance, but realising that these people,
231
00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:10,740
they have spent their time on it and that very often experts in that area.
232
00:26:10,740 --> 00:26:13,950
So it is a way for you to improve and to develop.
233
00:26:13,950 --> 00:26:20,970
And you know, if we're thinking about a publication, then you can actually end up with a much better publication as a result of that.
234
00:26:20,970 --> 00:26:27,750
So I know some of my own work from when I've submitted it to the first journal compared to, say, the third one.
235
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:34,530
The paper changes so much and it's so much better, and I'm much happier with it with that final submission.
236
00:26:34,530 --> 00:26:41,940
So and something else I was thinking, which I find really helpful if I'm really annoyed about some reviewers comments.
237
00:26:41,940 --> 00:26:46,260
I will just meet up with my friends, say, go to the pub, go to the cafe,
238
00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:53,190
have a video call during COVID, and I will just rant about it for a good half hour an hour.
239
00:26:53,190 --> 00:26:59,810
Get it all out of my system and then I'll say, Oh, OK, I feel a lot better now and ready to talk about.
240
00:26:59,810 --> 00:27:05,890
Exactly how we'd process anything else. And I think that's what we've got to, you know,
241
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:13,340
got to remember that it's how you'd process any other kind of emotion or not back if you had an argument with somebody,
242
00:27:13,340 --> 00:27:16,610
when someone's done something to annoy you. That's exactly what you would do.
243
00:27:16,610 --> 00:27:24,870
You would go and sit in a pub with your friends and go, Oh my, oh my God, you'll never believe what just happened.
244
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:32,940
And that is cathartic. Exactly, and it's so simple, and I really value that pub time.
245
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:42,180
Exactly. And that's why our and that's why our communities of practise and and kind of communities
246
00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:49,470
appears so important because actually they're the ones that kind of nurture and sustain us,
247
00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:54,060
share their experiences with us. You know, and say, you know, it's share.
248
00:27:54,060 --> 00:28:00,030
I've been through this too and kind of commiserate you when the failures and the rejections come in,
249
00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:06,510
but also celebrate with you when the when the successes happen.
250
00:28:06,510 --> 00:28:09,680
And I find that other people are very good at.
251
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:18,740
When you kind of wallowing in self-pity, which I consider to be very myself, to be very, very good at is other people are very good at going.
252
00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:24,290
But what about that thing that you did? That's really good. What about that thing you did?
253
00:28:24,290 --> 00:28:31,790
That's really good. And getting yourself a group of colleagues and a group of people that will do that for you is,
254
00:28:31,790 --> 00:28:37,360
I think, so important as part of the academic experience.
255
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:40,660
Yes, so basically find your cheerleaders, find them.
256
00:28:40,660 --> 00:28:46,480
They're out there and they'll be experiencing exactly the same stuff that you are ever.
257
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:52,120
Pretty much everyone is experiencing those feelings, the failure ot rejection.
258
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:57,490
So you just need to find your cheerleaders and you can be theres as well.
259
00:28:57,490 --> 00:29:01,000
Thank you so much to Catherine for taking this time to speak to me,
260
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:08,230
but also for her candour and honesty about what are actually quite difficult experiences to talk about,
261
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:13,510
but also admit to because it's not in academic culture to talk about these things.
262
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:20,890
So I really value her honesty, both in this discussion, but also on Twitter.
263
00:29:20,890 --> 00:29:25,630
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe.
264
00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:39,770
And join me. Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
265
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:52,731
To.
Wednesday Jan 19, 2022
Tales of major corrections
Wednesday Jan 19, 2022
Wednesday Jan 19, 2022
In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso about their experiences of doing ajorr corrections after their viva.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens.
2
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:25,790
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.
3
00:00:25,790 --> 00:00:36,790
Hmm. Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of R D the In-betweens.
4
00:00:36,790 --> 00:00:43,480
We're back again talking about the viva and specifically about corrections and outcomes of post viva.
5
00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:49,310
This episode is all about major corrections. Now there's a lot of anxiety around major corrections.
6
00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:54,220
The what that means in reality, that it's something terribly bad as an outcome.
7
00:00:54,220 --> 00:01:01,540
And hopefully the experiences of two of our graduates, Dr. Nicole Morrissey and Dr. Victoria Omotoso,
8
00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:11,260
will allay some of these fears and actually help you understand what major corrections are in reality and that it's really not so bad.
9
00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:21,250
OK, so I'm Nicole Morrissey. I did my Ph.D. in medical sciences or more specifically, neuroscience,
10
00:01:21,250 --> 00:01:30,080
and now I'm a postdoctoral researcher at the Medical Research Council in Harwell.
11
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:40,690
Fantastic, so the big question is when you after you did your viva, what kind of car did you get?
12
00:01:40,690 --> 00:01:51,080
And so while I was in my viva because I had what's known as an independent learning plan,
13
00:01:51,080 --> 00:02:00,710
they kind of say I was just it was described to me that my corrections were kind of like minor, but with extra time or minor/major.
14
00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:04,400
Well, officially on paper, I got given major corrections.
15
00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:09,920
So that meant that I had what like six months to do the corrections rather than three months.
16
00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:18,860
Yeah, exactly right. And I think what you've raised there is a really, really important point and important way in which minor major corrections are used,
17
00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:23,900
which is that it's about time that it will take you to do the corrections.
18
00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:28,610
And it's all sorts of reasons why people have what might be classified as minor corrections,
19
00:02:28,610 --> 00:02:32,030
but they get major corrections to give them the time to do them.
20
00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:38,480
You know, lots of people who are already working and therefore can't work on the corrections full time or that,
21
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,060
you know, there's all, you know, there's all sorts of reasons.
22
00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:47,120
And of course, having an individual learning plan, that means you're not able to do it in that period of time.
23
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,400
And it's really about the time it will take you to do the corrections rather than the corrections themselves.
24
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:59,930
How did they talk to you in the viva and afterwards about what specifically they want to do to do so through the viva
25
00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:03,050
We kind of just started. So mine was during the lockdown,
26
00:03:03,050 --> 00:03:11,810
so it was virtually so we were kind of all of us looking at our screens I had two screens set up one with the thesis and one with the examiners,
27
00:03:11,810 --> 00:03:17,480
and we were just going through the thesis just like a chapter by chapter going through it,
28
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:25,520
just discussing what I did and what they kind of they thought maybe needed to be corrected.
29
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:36,410
So I made notes as I was going through it, but also then afterwards it took it was about.
30
00:03:36,410 --> 00:03:41,890
First, probably three or four weeks after the viva I received the official documentation,
31
00:03:41,890 --> 00:03:48,730
which is when the examiners had written down what the corrections are,
32
00:03:48,730 --> 00:03:59,740
how specific were they about in that kind of list that they sent you about what you needed to do to get the OhD?
33
00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:06,640
I mean, they wrote down what the page number of what their point that they were like making and
34
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:12,760
whereabouts on the page like first paragraph second paragraph halfway through the second paragraph.
35
00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:19,170
So that made it quite easy to sort of go through one by one and correct it.
36
00:04:19,170 --> 00:04:24,300
But it was at least clear to you what the expectation of the examiners was.
37
00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:33,090
Yes. And I think that's where a lot of the anxiety for people comes is they think it's not going to be clear what they need to do and it might,
38
00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:39,270
you know, be open to huge amounts of interpretation, whereas actually.
39
00:04:39,270 --> 00:04:45,570
Examiners tend to be pretty, pretty clear and pretty specific about what what is needed.
40
00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:50,940
Yeah. Like, I felt like it was kind of like a to do list, that I went through and sort of tickd things off
41
00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:58,060
Yeah, I like that kind of concept of it. So when you see, you know, you tackled your corrections, you talk to your supervisor.
42
00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:03,480
You ticked off the to do list. And you when you finished that, what happened?
43
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,670
What did how did you resubmit the thesis?
44
00:05:08,670 --> 00:05:18,150
So I had to email the postgraduate admissions office and tell them I was ready to resubmit.
45
00:05:18,150 --> 00:05:21,090
And similarly to how I submitted in the first place,
46
00:05:21,090 --> 00:05:33,060
they gave me a link to the online folder where I uploaded it in both Microsoft Word and PDF format because I thought both might be helpful.
47
00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:36,990
And what happened then? How long of a wait did you have before you
48
00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:44,520
Actually, you heard that the corrections have been accepted? Um, well, I had quite a long wait.
49
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,820
I ended up having to like ask about what was happening.
50
00:05:47,820 --> 00:05:54,810
I think because it was a mix of the pandemic and I submitted my corrections probably at the end of May.
51
00:05:54,810 --> 00:06:03,840
So then it was also the summer and people were away. So I didn't find out about my corrections until beginning of August.
52
00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:11,950
Wow. Wow. So it was quite a few months, and then I had a second set of corrections to do.
53
00:06:11,950 --> 00:06:15,850
OK, so this is so this is something that people often ask about is, if you know,
54
00:06:15,850 --> 00:06:19,780
submit if you submit the first set of corrections, what if they come back with extra things?
55
00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:22,400
So can you talk a little bit about?
56
00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:29,690
About that, about how how you got that extra set of corrections, what kind of things they were, how you approached it?
57
00:06:29,690 --> 00:06:35,600
Yeah. So it was, I don't know, frustrating, is the right word or disappointing.
58
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:43,730
But when I went through like the the examiner's report of the second set of corrections,
59
00:06:43,730 --> 00:06:47,630
it became clear to me that they had read the entire thing pretty much.
60
00:06:47,630 --> 00:06:53,950
Or most of it again. Wow. And most of the corrections were just spelling errors and then a few suggestions
61
00:06:53,950 --> 00:07:04,400
and change like statistical tests or corrections to my statistical analysis.
62
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,620
A couple of things that I didn't really make clear during my first corrections
63
00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:18,850
So. I kind of went through it and was able to appreciate like the like the effort and help,
64
00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:24,810
that the examiners provided to make it the best, that my thesis, the best it could be.
65
00:07:24,810 --> 00:07:36,670
And. I think also having quite a bit of a break between submitting my second corrections no submitting my first corrections and receiving the second lot,
66
00:07:36,670 --> 00:07:42,190
I was able to look through my thesis and with a clearer mind.
67
00:07:42,190 --> 00:07:52,840
It actually kind of it made it a lot easier to kind of get into a good, sort of like the best version of it can be.
68
00:07:52,840 --> 00:08:02,620
And so although it was maybe disappointing, I it kind of it was again another good learning experience.
69
00:08:02,620 --> 00:08:08,200
It made it a lot better than it was from the first set of corrections.
70
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,720
Absolutely. And so how did how did that happen?
71
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:18,550
Did they email you and say, Look, we've got a few more, few more corrections we want you to do before we can pass it?
72
00:08:18,550 --> 00:08:24,340
And then how long did you did you have to do the second set?
73
00:08:24,340 --> 00:08:28,600
Yes. So I got another email. Similarly, like before saying that.
74
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,290
So yeah, it was like, before that I got an email.
75
00:08:33,290 --> 00:08:39,680
The exact wording. It said something like to like.
76
00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:46,790
Further corrections or something. And again, it was like a to do list again, but a lot smaller.
77
00:08:46,790 --> 00:08:53,720
Yeah. And I was given four weeks to finish complete them in.
78
00:08:53,720 --> 00:09:01,650
And you said they were kind of mostly. Typing spelling like really tiny bits of work.
79
00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:14,290
Yeah, which is kind of I remember seeing on Twitter being like a meme or not a meme, but like it's a picture with words saying, you know?
80
00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,980
That not to worry about or make going through your thesis.
81
00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:22,120
Make sure the spelling perfect cause the examiners aren't actually going to read it.
82
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:27,250
I was like, well, it was actually it was important.
83
00:09:27,250 --> 00:09:35,620
Yeah. And then my examiners definitely like, Read it. So yeah, I was like, That's funny, but it's also not true.
84
00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:38,890
I think there's something really lovely that you said in there about the, you know,
85
00:09:38,890 --> 00:09:46,150
the the way in which the examiners approached the thesis and the level of detail about second time around that they read it.
86
00:09:46,150 --> 00:09:56,760
But they that what you see, the way that you talked about it seemed to be with a kind of that there was real, there was real care from the examiners.
87
00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:03,340
You know, your thesis. I mean, I I really enjoyed the viva
88
00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:07,900
I mean, it was, you know, it was a good chat about my work.
89
00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:16,840
And I mean, my examiners kind of like, I think the way you look at it, it's all a learning process.
90
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:21,810
So. You know, it's.
91
00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:31,890
I think it's to be appreciated the kind of the time and effort that they put in because it's it's towards your own development.
92
00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:41,910
Absolutely. And. I think, you know, goes back to the kind of thing that we always tell people, which is that, you know, your examiners wants you to pass.
93
00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:49,800
They want you to pass and pass and produce the best thesis that you have that you can produce at that point in time.
94
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:56,920
And you know, that's everybody's goal, not just yours, their job isn't to catch you out in any way
95
00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:05,110
Exactly. And one thing that I often get asked by people about major corrections is if having had
96
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:11,380
major corrections somehow negatively affects your opportunities that come after the PhD
97
00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:16,720
And I have a very specific answer to this and a very brief answer,
98
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:21,910
but I wondered if if you as somebody that you know, has has been through, it could talk.
99
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,690
Or just comment on if there's any kind of impact. Long term from having had major corrections.
100
00:11:30,690 --> 00:11:38,640
I mean, I don't think so, so I mean, I got my post-doc position like before I'd actually submitted my thesis,
101
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,340
so it didn't impact that and I can't see it.
102
00:11:42,340 --> 00:11:49,650
I'm just like applying for new positions now, and I can't see it impacting me here because it's not something that you generally list.
103
00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:51,720
On your CV or
104
00:11:51,720 --> 00:12:01,320
And if someone asks, you kind of got a question why they're asking you, because it's not like with other examples university or school exams.
105
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400
It's not really a very standardised because it really just depends on the examiners
106
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:14,640
that you have and how like I guess what they what they think should be corrected.
107
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:21,610
So it is very subjective and very much depends on the viva and on the examiners.
108
00:12:21,610 --> 00:12:24,760
Yeah, and that's exactly what I tell people.
109
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:33,040
Everything that you said for it, when it actually comes to getting out in the world, nobody really asks or.
110
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:39,430
Exactly. And in that case, because you've got a you've got a Ph.D. or whatever research degree you've been doing,
111
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:45,350
you know, you you've it's it's not like a first or a 2:1, it's pass or fail.
112
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:50,550
It's it's that simple. And so once you're through that system, it doesn't matter.
113
00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:55,020
If you've got major corrections and I think it's important to take some of the stigma away
114
00:12:55,020 --> 00:13:00,670
from corrections being a negative thing because corrections are actually quite normal thing.
115
00:13:00,670 --> 00:13:06,070
Hi, my name is Victoria Omotoso I did my Ph.D. in theology,
116
00:13:06,070 --> 00:13:12,190
and my research was looking specifically at audience reception of Jesus in film.
117
00:13:12,190 --> 00:13:19,360
So looking at audiences in South Africa and in the UK and how they respond to Jesus in films.
118
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:29,430
And currently I am working as a lecturer, teaching theology and Media, IMedia Studies.
119
00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:38,450
Fabulous, thank you. So can you tell us a little bit about a little bit about your viva experience, but particularly and.
120
00:13:38,450 --> 00:13:41,730
What you what you had in terms of corrections after the viva
121
00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:50,210
and whether they were classified as major or minor and how the examiners talked to you about those corrections and in the viva?
122
00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:54,920
Yeah. So my viva experience happened in 2020.
123
00:13:54,920 --> 00:14:00,370
So obviously it was during the time of heightened kind of COVID restrictions.
124
00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:02,300
And so it was an online viva,
125
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:12,200
which actually which did not actually detract anything away from the overall experience of a lovely engagement, even online.
126
00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,890
And my examiners were lovely and gracious, and I had, you know,
127
00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:23,840
good support in terms of kind of prepping of what that might look like, say the Viva itself went well.
128
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:35,370
And then when I think the next phase when I returned back into the virtual room, I was given.
129
00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:42,270
Major corrections and major corrections, it was classified as because of the time they had given me,
130
00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:49,290
I was given six months in terms of the nature and you have to remember everything is
131
00:14:49,290 --> 00:14:56,640
kind of specific to the nature of your research and of what they require of you.
132
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:03,660
So of course, everyone's kind of specific specific recommendations will be different.
133
00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:10,740
But in my personal case, it was to kind of go back on one thing,
134
00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:19,260
but they had given me enough time to gather all the extra extra kind of literary resources that I needed to do it.
135
00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:25,810
And at first, it was a bit harrowinfbecause I wasn't sure about what that meant.
136
00:15:25,810 --> 00:15:29,970
Like, you know, do I get a Ph.D. or what has happened?
137
00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:36,690
But it was only after a few kind of frantic calls to my supervisor and to kind of the chair.
138
00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:40,590
So there's always like a chair that, you know, sits in even online,
139
00:15:40,590 --> 00:15:48,120
and they were able to kind of explain properly what the process of these corrections meant and
140
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,540
which then after I was a bit more calm and not too worried about like I will get my Ph.D.,
141
00:15:54,540 --> 00:16:00,540
but this is just what they require. And you know, at the end of the day, it makes it better at the end.
142
00:16:00,540 --> 00:16:09,140
So don't be like so disheartened when you feel like you have majorcorrections because the examiners at the end of the day do just want your best.
143
00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:18,190
They just wanted your best interests and will make a more stronger Ph.D. at the end of it.
144
00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:20,740
Yes, and I think that's really important what you just said there,
145
00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:25,930
because people do hear major corrections and they sort of shudder slightly because what
146
00:16:25,930 --> 00:16:30,400
they were imagining for major corrections is is a rewrite of the PhD essential
147
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:37,750
which is not in any way what it is and not you like you say, rightfully put it, it's much more to do with the time it takes.
148
00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:46,360
It will take you to do the work. And so because you get up to three months of minor corrections and up to six months for major.
149
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:53,560
So I wondered if you could say a little bit more about what your your corrections were, what kind of work that you had to do?
150
00:16:53,560 --> 00:17:01,210
Yeah. So yeah, like like you said, it was about the time. So I was given six months essentially and it was all on one chapter.
151
00:17:01,210 --> 00:17:05,350
It was one. I mean, I wrote six chapters and they were fine with the other six.
152
00:17:05,350 --> 00:17:13,930
But it was one chapter that they really wanted me to hone in on to get more kind of, you know, more kind of scholarly knowledge about the field.
153
00:17:13,930 --> 00:17:17,530
And it was it was a chapter on whiteness and whiteness in film.
154
00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:20,530
And of course, you know.
155
00:17:20,530 --> 00:17:29,110
This kind of day and age, you need to be up to date anyway with those, if you're going to kind of go to these kind of topics, say in itself
156
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:32,290
That's what they told me to do. They gave me a list of books,
157
00:17:32,290 --> 00:17:46,030
a list of authors to go and resource and add those list of authors to my existing bibliography and add that already to the work I had already done.
158
00:17:46,030 --> 00:17:50,830
So it's important to note that it is having major corrections. It is the time.
159
00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:56,590
So, you know, by the time you get the resources six months goes quite quickly. Actually, in terms of resourcing,
160
00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:00,610
the authors going to different libraries getting the books you need and then
161
00:18:00,610 --> 00:18:05,200
taking the time to actually read through them and edit what you need and take in.
162
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,060
You know, just kind of shifting things around six months goes by really quickly.
163
00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:14,500
So it was really helpful to actually have those six months in three months.
164
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:21,790
I think it would have been a bit of a scramble. And so with the major corrections on the six months timescale actually was very helpful.
165
00:18:21,790 --> 00:18:31,810
And yeah, just even my own like personal like health issues as well that help me also spread out more,
166
00:18:31,810 --> 00:18:35,980
especially for, you know, people that have kind of, you know, different things.
167
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:43,960
Life is just really hectic sometimes. So having that extra time actually was a blessing because you were able to kind
168
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,810
of spread out a bit longer and make sure that you do the work properly and.
169
00:18:49,810 --> 00:18:54,310
You know, in the time they had given you so that was essentially what my corrections were
170
00:18:54,310 --> 00:19:01,190
was to add more and more kind of literary works to what I had already written.
171
00:19:01,190 --> 00:19:04,420
And so that is why I spent six months doing looking for the books,
172
00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:14,770
getting the books and reworking parts of that chapter that had now had all these new and more updated authors into them.
173
00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:23,140
Yeah. And so, you know, the overall from the sounds of it the corrections you had to do is to kind of further develop the literature and one chapter.
174
00:19:23,140 --> 00:19:28,270
But also it seems from what you're saying that they didn't just say that is the correction.
175
00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:32,860
They were actually very specific in what what they wanted you to read and to
176
00:19:32,860 --> 00:19:37,930
incorporate in developing the this kind of scholarly debate in that chapter.
177
00:19:37,930 --> 00:19:43,450
Could you say a little bit more about how prescriptive they were or weren't about what they wanted you to do?
178
00:19:43,450 --> 00:19:51,400
Yeah. Yes. So about a month after the Viva, the PhD report comes through
179
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,420
The report, of course, gives a very detailed description of what they wanted.
180
00:19:56,420 --> 00:19:59,290
So there was kind of one.
181
00:19:59,290 --> 00:20:09,100
You know, there's a few other things actually, apart from the one chapter they wanted me to say to add a bit more of my personal views.
182
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:13,960
So kind of my own positionality in the research say kind of.
183
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:21,250
I mean, I did it and I added about like two, maybe three paragraphs, but they wanted more.
184
00:20:21,250 --> 00:20:28,630
And the thing is, it was really good because then I was able to actually sit down and write six extra pages talking about myself.
185
00:20:28,630 --> 00:20:38,710
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, from three paragraphs to six pages of my positionality, which is what they wanted, you know?
186
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:44,980
So at the end of the day, it makes, you know, like I said, the end result makes for a much stronger Ph.D.
187
00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:48,880
So that was the other thing that they wanted me to do apart from the chapter, but it was all very detailed.
188
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:54,130
It was like, you know, speak more about your positionality in this research
189
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:58,180
And then kind of these are the authors that we'd like to add.
190
00:20:58,180 --> 00:21:03,790
You know, if you're going to talk about, you know, having more as well, you know, doing like, add more, you know, BAME authors.
191
00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:09,720
And they gave me names and books, specific books and authors to kind of go and seek out.
192
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:17,530
And so, you know, they were they were quite gracious in the fact that they were taken the time to actually say,
193
00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:23,650
OK, it's not just, you know, go and add more, but actually these are the books we want to see.
194
00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:31,510
And these are the names we want to see to make sure that you have kind of covered all the bases of what we had asked of you.
195
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:35,620
So they were very detailed in that respect.
196
00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:39,100
And then, of course, you always get those are the major ones and then you always get, you know,
197
00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:45,700
the little kind of, you know, minor grammatical ones that they said there was not many of those.
198
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:51,280
But, you know, they also add that to the overall report in terms of, you know,
199
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:57,890
you could have made the sentence a bit shorter here or ass a comment that there's kind of just like minor ones.
200
00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:04,870
And but overall, it was, you know, it was helpful to kind of just go through each point and say,
201
00:22:04,870 --> 00:22:10,360
OK, this is what they want and then kind of respond to that.
202
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,960
And you know, there were there were moments where you could where, you know,
203
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,840
you could, I guess, kind of push back a bit and, you know, say to the examiners
204
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,900
You know what? This is what I meant when I said this kind of things like that.
205
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,770
So, you know, it is, it is, you know, a dialogue anyway, that's going on.
206
00:22:26,770 --> 00:22:32,590
And at the end of the day, you know, like I said, they were all working towards the same goal,
207
00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:38,590
which is, you know, to have an end product that you will be proud of.
208
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:43,360
Your supervisor will be proud of and the examiners themselves and will be just really happy to be like OK.
209
00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,960
They've done the work that they that we told them to do, and they've done it.
210
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:55,610
So yeah, that was just the main kind of process of just kind of going through that report step by step.
211
00:22:55,610 --> 00:23:01,090
And with that as well. And it was great because my supervisors also see they get a copy of the report as well.
212
00:23:01,090 --> 00:23:02,830
So, you know, for the next six months,
213
00:23:02,830 --> 00:23:11,590
it was just the three of us really just going through this report and making sure that we kind of ticked all the all the boxes that they wanted.
214
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:15,190
So that was made easier because, you know, OK, wait, one, they want to this.
215
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:20,590
Have we done that? yeah, they wanted this? Have we done that? So it was just, you know, an easy list,
216
00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:25,090
kind of just going through and make sure that you tick the boxes and then you could kind of submit
217
00:23:25,090 --> 00:23:30,740
this corrections with confidence knowing that you've answered all their questions.
218
00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:38,240
Yeah, and I think that was, you know, like you say, it's not it's it's not as generic as you need to develop the literature in this chapter, you know,
219
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,880
and it's not even as as as vague as you need to include more BAME authors, you know,
220
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:50,870
a list of people for you to go about and think about, including and I think that that's, you know, that's what's really important.
221
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:56,060
And for people to know is that you're getting a level of specificity in this,
222
00:23:56,060 --> 00:24:02,380
they're going to be very, very clear and specific about what they what they want and need you to do.
223
00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:08,760
Yes, to enable you to get it to the level that. Will get your Ph.D.
224
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:14,040
What then happened with submitting those corrections? What was the process and how did you find out?
225
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:19,950
You know, whether or not they'd been approved yet? So the process again was pretty simple.
226
00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:24,960
It's pretty much the same way you'd submit it first time round.
227
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:30,210
You kind of submit that and try to just remember, did I submit?
228
00:24:30,210 --> 00:24:33,550
Yeah, I think I submitted one.
229
00:24:33,550 --> 00:24:44,770
With the comments say, I kind of did kind of two versions of that where I had one, where I'd kind of put the comments to say, OK.
230
00:24:44,770 --> 00:24:49,630
Page 12, Line 16. It was because that's how they were in the report.
231
00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:54,360
And I put that, Oh, I did this, that this author's now added.
232
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,280
So I had all the list of all these comments in there
233
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:08,860
And then I also had another copy that had no comments, but the corrections were made, so I submitted the one anyway, just in case,
234
00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:16,040
as a backup, the one that had no comments and they just submitted it exactly the same way to a email address the same.
235
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:25,270
I submitted the first one and then it's kind of a waiting game there after.
236
00:25:25,270 --> 00:25:40,700
And then you kind of just get an email saying that you, you know, the examiners have reviewed your thesis and the exam board are happy to kind of.
237
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:48,590
I guess, you know, award you with a Ph.D. and that's it for this episode.
238
00:25:48,590 --> 00:25:51,710
Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe. And join me.
239
00:25:51,710 --> 00:26:18,370
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
Wednesday Nov 10, 2021
Tales of minor corrections
Wednesday Nov 10, 2021
Wednesday Nov 10, 2021
In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Connor Horton, Dr. Daniela Lazaro Pancheco and Dr. Edward Mills about their experiences of doing minor corrections after their viva.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:13,600
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in-betweens.
2
00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:32,720
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,300
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the latest episode of R&D and the In-betweens. I'm your host, Kelly Preece,
4
00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:41,450
And today we've got another compilation episode for you.
5
00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:48,500
So a number of you have been asking to do an episode on corrections, so corrections after you've had your viva.
6
00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:55,520
So I have spoken to recent graduates about both minor and major corrections, and for this episode,
7
00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:00,500
I'm going to be talking to Connor, Daniela and Edward about their minor corrections.
8
00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:13,370
Yes, so my name is Connor. I used to study - well did a PhD in - cell biology at the university between 2015 and 2019, and then came out into the
9
00:01:13,370 --> 00:01:22,190
COVID 19 job market, and have now found a job in medical communications where I'm writing for an agency in London.
10
00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:28,060
So I guess the first question is: what was your viva experience like,
11
00:01:28,060 --> 00:01:37,800
and what did you get in terms of corrections afterwards? Yes, so my viva was actually a really good experience, actually.
12
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:43,410
I was always told that old adage, it's the only time that anyone's going to be really interested about your work,
13
00:01:43,410 --> 00:01:47,730
so you should enjoy it because you're never going to get as many questions about your work again.
14
00:01:47,730 --> 00:01:54,180
So, yeah, mine was was really good. I had a really good external assessor, and a good internal assessor.
15
00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:56,760
And I think the whole process took around two and a half to three hours.
16
00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:02,940
So my viva corrections were minor corrections, which was which was good because you would have that.
17
00:02:02,940 --> 00:02:08,310
worry going in. You know, like how much am I going to have to actually don top of this?
18
00:02:08,310 --> 00:02:12,870
But it was really things like, you know, adding in more sections of things they wanted included.
19
00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:17,340
So I had to put those in, remove certain figures or change figure legends.
20
00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:23,310
And then most of it was kind of grammatical and yeah, just punctuation and capitals and things like that.
21
00:02:23,310 --> 00:02:27,450
So it wasn't actually too much, which was just great. Yeah.
22
00:02:27,450 --> 00:02:31,890
And I think that's reassuring for people to hear that minor really does mean minor.
23
00:02:31,890 --> 00:02:37,740
And you know, it's it's has to be stuff that can get done within within three months.
24
00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:41,310
But for many people, it's stuff that can be done within a couple of days.
25
00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:46,200
Yeah, when you see minor and you actually see what the revisions are, you're like, 'actually, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be.'
26
00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:54,510
So it's not as bad. And I was going to say, how were the revisions and the corrections communicated to you?
27
00:02:54,510 --> 00:02:57,830
So it was quite nerve racking when I went into my viva because of course,
28
00:02:57,830 --> 00:03:03,060
I did it in the time before COVID, where we did it all with physical copies and in person.
29
00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:08,820
And you see examiners come in with a copy of your thesis that is just absolutely covered in Post-it Notes and you're like,
30
00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:15,630
Oh my God, like, was there that much wrong with it? A lot of it is comments that they have or things that they want to touch upon.
31
00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:21,900
But I think when I received my final set of corrections, it very much was, you know,
32
00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:26,130
a kind of a table of how the whole thing went and my kind of like, 'overall
33
00:03:26,130 --> 00:03:30,330
satisfactory' or like the kind of comments that they had about the viva process.
34
00:03:30,330 --> 00:03:36,600
And then underneath was a list of like what page number there was and then what needed changing and what line and things like that.
35
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:42,370
So it's very much it's very quick to do because it corresponds to, yeah, it's two specific pages,
36
00:03:42,370 --> 00:03:48,420
so you can just quickly whizz through it and and find the bits that they're talking about and correct them.
37
00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:52,230
And I think, again, that's another thing that causes people anxiety, it's that sense of, well,
38
00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:57,180
you know, 'am I going to be in the dark about what it is they actually will want me to do?'
39
00:03:57,180 --> 00:04:06,660
whereas actually examiners tend to be pretty specific and prescriptive about what the changes are that they want to make.
40
00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:12,300
Yeah, I don't think it was unfair at all and what they said, and I think everything was quite clearly put across.
41
00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:19,530
But I think you've also got to remember that that they're not looking for excuses to fail you, that they're looking for a lot of reasons to pass you.
42
00:04:19,530 --> 00:04:24,180
And you know, they want you to do the best that you can. And that really came across in the discussions that we had.
43
00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:27,930
They were really encouraging and they really wanted to encourage a great discussion and really kind
44
00:04:27,930 --> 00:04:32,610
of tease into the knowledge that I had and allow it to come out and they're not trying to trick you,
45
00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:37,560
which I think is another thing. You know, a lot of people think that it's like a good cop bad cop routine when you go in. They were both,
46
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,030
you know, really pleasant in my experience, really wanted to talk about the science.
47
00:04:42,030 --> 00:04:47,370
And I think everything that they gave me was corrections was entirely fair. And yeah, they were incredibly transparent, which is good.
48
00:04:47,370 --> 00:04:57,470
So. And how did you approach that period or the kind of time you took to undertake those corrections?
49
00:04:57,470 --> 00:05:06,340
Did you just kind of print off a list and tick them off as you went through; you know, how did you actually go about it?
50
00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:14,530
Yes, so I think I did what most people did and came out the viva and was like, 'Oh my God, thank God, that's done.'
51
00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:18,520
My viva was in November, so I was very much like, 'Oh,
52
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:24,640
I'll have Christmas and I'll sit on these for a bit and you know, I'll do it in the in the new year.'
53
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:31,480
But I think it's fair to say as well that there was an element of burnout that I was kind of experiencing after my Ph.D.
54
00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,160
I think like,
55
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:43,120
you're always operating at incredibly high level for (I think my PhD was four years) and you're always operating at maximum capacity.
56
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,620
And yeah, you get you finally finish and, you know, everyone tells you, oh,
57
00:05:47,620 --> 00:05:52,960
you got to submit your thesis and then you submit your thesis and then you'vew gotta have a viva and then you have your viva,
58
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,280
And even then it's it's still not over.
59
00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:02,590
So mentally, it was kind of like, 'when is the final bits?', you know, and when you get to the corrections, that is very much the final section.
60
00:06:02,590 --> 00:06:09,490
But I think mentally for me is just never really see the end in sight because every time you have an ending, there's another bit to be done.
61
00:06:09,490 --> 00:06:14,500
And so to approach the corrections, yeah, I had the list, went through,
62
00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:20,320
ticked them off, mase sure that everything was like absolutely perfect before sending it back.
63
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:26,740
And then even when you send them back, you're like, 'Oh, will my examiners agree with the corrections that I've made?'
64
00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:29,350
Or, you know, there's still an element of uncertainty.
65
00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:35,690
It wasn't until I actually got my certificate in the post that I could actually kind of relax a bit and be like, 'Oh, it's it's over.'
66
00:06:35,690 --> 00:06:44,560
You know, it's done. And did you hear quite quickly that your corrections had been accepted?
67
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,860
The whole process was very quick, actually. So I submitted my thesis in September, my viva was in November.
68
00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:57,370
I submitted my corrections in January and I think a week later I got an email saying that it had been approved by the Senate of the university.
69
00:06:57,370 --> 00:06:59,350
And that a PhD would be awarded.
70
00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:06,250
So I kind of look back on that and I was like, I don't know why it took me so long to do that because it could have been done before the new year.
71
00:07:06,250 --> 00:07:09,100
But I think, yeah, you've got to have that kind of aspect of - mentally,
72
00:07:09,100 --> 00:07:13,020
You've also got to do what is right for you as well, and you have three months to turn them around.
73
00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:16,810
So. Yeah, and I think that's really,
74
00:07:16,810 --> 00:07:22,600
really important actually that you recognise that the kind of the impact of the burnout and that you've got three months,
75
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,070
it doesn't make any difference to anybody other than you,
76
00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:32,290
You know, if you submit within a week or within at the end, the end of those three months,
77
00:07:32,290 --> 00:07:39,790
it's how you manage your time depending on what other responsibilities you have or you know what other pressures you have,
78
00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:43,360
but also, you know your well-being. Yeah, exactly.
79
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:48,490
Yeah, that's probably a take-home message from this, I think, is, you know, look after yourself first.
80
00:07:48,490 --> 00:07:55,090
And I was very lucky to have supervisors that kind of agreed to me on that and very supportive for the whole process.
81
00:07:55,090 --> 00:08:04,450
My name is Daniella Pacheco. Right now, I work as a postdoctoral research assistant at the engineering department.
82
00:08:04,450 --> 00:08:11,860
My research is currently focussed on the study of the intervertebral disc in order to improve the testing
83
00:08:11,860 --> 00:08:21,040
for new therapies that eventually will lead to treat degeneration in the spine and low back pain.
84
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,510
So I did my viva back in 2019.
85
00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:29,140
It was quite a good experience, I would say.
86
00:08:29,140 --> 00:08:40,840
Fortunately, the outcome of my viva, I passed with minor corrections. Once we completed the viva and my viva lasted almost three hours,
87
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:49,450
I - they mentioned that they will send a report with all the notes and the recommendations for me to to make the corrections.
88
00:08:49,450 --> 00:08:59,380
And what I received was a very detailed list that was numbered with very specific parts to be corrected on my thesis. More than content,
89
00:08:59,380 --> 00:09:07,240
it was a week of editing, a week of going into more detail having some explanations and very little technical
90
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:13,600
corrections in terms of the content of what I wrote for my dissertation or for my thesis.
91
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,680
I waited around a month for my list of corrections.
92
00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:25,120
To be honest, I thought it was quite a long proces: I emailed asking when I'm going to receive this.
93
00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:31,480
In that case is a little bit tricky as well because I was an international student back then.
94
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:37,360
So all these processes linked to my visa and my time started to apply or go back
95
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,810
to my country or where my - where I'm allowed to take any extra work as well.
96
00:09:43,810 --> 00:09:48,760
So time is also something that you should pay attention on.
97
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,230
If that's something that you worry about, like, you communicate that to your department.
98
00:09:53,230 --> 00:10:02,590
That's probably my recommendation there. So I received this document Word lwith, as I mentioned, a numbered list. In my case,
99
00:10:02,590 --> 00:10:12,930
There were around 20 lines or 20 corrections. As I mentioned before, they were very specific in terms of 'Line 16,
100
00:10:12,930 --> 00:10:22,860
Page - number of the page, number of the paragraph', and then a little bit description of what they wanted for that paragraph to change,
101
00:10:22,860 --> 00:10:25,380
for what they want, if they require more detail,
102
00:10:25,380 --> 00:10:35,470
if they want, if they say it wasn't clear enough that the content was okay based on their discussion on the viva, but it required some rewriting.
103
00:10:35,470 --> 00:10:38,620
And so are some rewording in some cases,
104
00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:47,140
they ask at part of my conclusions to add content and be more explicit on my suggestions or recommendations for future work.
105
00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:52,450
So I will say some of them were very editorial that were very easy to address.
106
00:10:52,450 --> 00:11:00,070
And in terms of content they were, they were quite descriptive of what they expected based on our discussion.
107
00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:04,810
I mentioned that there were around 20 corrections on this list. There were two pages in a Word
108
00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:10,390
Document, so even where there were quite a lot of corrections suggested there,
109
00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:15,640
They were easy to address and they were briefly but clearly descripted.
110
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,810
It took me around probably three hours to do the whole corrections.
111
00:11:19,810 --> 00:11:26,470
So in my case, it was very simple. Even when it took me three hours, which I was very glad,
112
00:11:26,470 --> 00:11:32,470
once the process - I spent a month before receiving a little a bit of stress and anxiety,
113
00:11:32,470 --> 00:11:37,510
and just thinking 'how long this is going to take?', even when I have three months and they were more than enough.
114
00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:45,490
And even because I was applying for different visas and I was checking where my opportunities were in terms of jobs,
115
00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:50,020
I waited till the last week to submit my corrections.
116
00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:56,500
So I sent the I sent the corrections to my internal examiner through an email.
117
00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:02,740
It was quite a very informal but clear process to follow there. Hello, my name is Edward Mills.
118
00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:12,860
I am a lecturer in medieval studies here at the University of Exeter, and I completed my viva in October 2020.
119
00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:18,770
So can you tell us a little bit about your corrections? So you got minor corrections, is that correct?
120
00:12:18,770 --> 00:12:20,390
That's correct, yes. Minor corrections.
121
00:12:20,390 --> 00:12:28,940
So first of all, can you tell us a little bit about how your examiners talked to you about your corrections in the viva?
122
00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:32,870
So my examiners gave me minor corrections at the end of viva life.
123
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:41,600
They were very helpful actually in distinguishing, both in the viva and in the report they sent to me afterwards, thesis corrections
124
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:48,380
which would need to be completed in order for the thesis to be accepted on revision
125
00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:55,880
and then possible future corrections if the thesis were to be published as a book.
126
00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:05,870
They made it clear that the corrections to have the thesis accepted for the first part of those two were fairly minor,
127
00:13:05,870 --> 00:13:10,940
but they were clear from from the end of the thesis - from the end of the viva onwards.
128
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:15,710
So when you say they were fairly minor (yep), can you elaborate on what that is?
129
00:13:15,710 --> 00:13:19,730
Because I think for a lot of people, until they go through it,
130
00:13:19,730 --> 00:13:24,470
They don't actually know what minor corrections entail.
131
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:30,500
So minor corrections for me meant corrections that could be achieved within a period of about three months.
132
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:38,750
So my viva was in October, and I had until, I think, mid-January to actually submit those corrections.
133
00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:44,450
I'm actually looking now at the spreadsheet I made with all of the corrections that I was given on it.
134
00:13:44,450 --> 00:13:52,370
And they ranged from picking out particularly
135
00:13:52,370 --> 00:13:59,570
Unclear or problematic single phrases that I've used, so I've got one example here, which says simply,
136
00:13:59,570 --> 00:14:07,490
I've talked about 'reductive modern understandings', and I was asked to unpack that debate, make it a bit clearer what that precisely meant.
137
00:14:07,490 --> 00:14:17,000
Another example of something similar to that: I was asked to provide my definition of the term 'didactic', however broad it might be.
138
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,840
I just use that term and left it hanging. I was asked to clarify that slightly.
139
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,830
So we're talking about really, really specific things.
140
00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:31,920
Yes, I think everything in my minor corrections was within an individual chapter.
141
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:38,400
There was nothing that cuts across the board of chapters. And so how were these corrections communicated to you?
142
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,570
So in two ways, I think. The first was during the viva itself.
143
00:14:42,570 --> 00:14:51,270
I, it became clear as the examiners went through my thesis - and they did take a fairly linear approach during the viva -
144
00:14:51,270 --> 00:14:55,170
which bits they returned to and where I could probably expect comments.
145
00:14:55,170 --> 00:14:58,830
But the main way in which I got corrections was in the Examiner's report,
146
00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:05,310
which I received about three or four weeks after the viva. Which I should say is completely normal.
147
00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:12,280
Yes. It does take some time and your correction period.
148
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:17,340
Whatever it is, three months for minor, six months for major, et cetera, doesn't start until you get that report.
149
00:15:17,340 --> 00:15:22,060
It doesn't start on the day of the viva. It does make for a slightly nervous three weeks after the viva.
150
00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:27,760
Yes. Yes. Worth pointing out. But when I got the report back.
151
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,190
The thing that I noticed it was for me, it was a PDF document.
152
00:15:31,190 --> 00:15:36,310
And the thing that I noticed when I looked at it was it was - I was given effectively page reference,
153
00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:42,100
possibly a quote from my thesis and then a question.
154
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:46,290
So for example, 'are you making assumptions here?'
155
00:15:46,290 --> 00:15:55,910
Question mark. And the expectation was for me to answer that question or clarify or resolve something that I left hanging.
156
00:15:55,910 --> 00:16:00,860
So there was nothing ambiguous about the corrections that they wanted you to do.
157
00:16:00,860 --> 00:16:07,250
No, they'd made it clear to me that I couldn't go back to them directly, but that I could go through my supervisor once.
158
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:11,670
But I think, what I mean more is the list that they gave you.
159
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:18,230
It's very clear what they expected you to do to. Resubmit and pass.
160
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:21,560
Yes, I would. I think I was very fortunate in that respect.
161
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:28,580
And I think it's fair to say with with minor and major corrections, actually there is, you know,
162
00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:33,800
There's a level quite a level of specificity of what it is the examiners want you to do.
163
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,420
Yes, I've actually got one example here on the spreadsheet, which is perhaps a little detailed,
164
00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:42,830
but I'm going to give it because it's a really good example of a single minor correction.
165
00:16:42,830 --> 00:16:52,010
OK. So on Page 304, for example, the examiner has asked the question, 'French is indeed a language of court and cloister,
166
00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:59,120
But why does this make it ambivalent as a language?', which is a really specific and also a really good question.
167
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:06,040
And then I fixed that by changing the term from 'ambivalent' to 'polyvalent'.
168
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:14,020
That was an example of a super-specific correction. And so you mentioned a spreadsheet.
169
00:17:14,020 --> 00:17:18,950
Yes. So this is something about how you - how you managed and responded to your corrections.
170
00:17:18,950 --> 00:17:24,820
Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Yes. So the simple answer to that is:
171
00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:32,980
I went and made a spreadsheet because I noticed that all of my comments on things to fix came in the form of questions,
172
00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:38,980
I thought the easiest way of doing it would be to copy and paste the entire document
173
00:17:38,980 --> 00:17:45,100
into an Excel spreadsheet and break it up so that for each row in a spreadsheet,
174
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:51,550
I would have a page reference, whether it was a minor correction for the thesis or future one,
175
00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:56,590
and I would focus on the kind of minor corrections for resubmission.
176
00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:06,700
I then had a box next to it, which said, 'changed?' with an X on it when I done that and then details as well. The details column said
177
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:14,170
Something like, for example, 'added a note on Page 248 to clarify this' or 'fixed awkward phrasing.'
178
00:18:14,170 --> 00:18:22,120
And so was this just for your own benefit or was this something you had to submit, or ... I didn't have to submit it, actually, but I chose to.
179
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:26,890
It was mainly for my own benefit so that I could make sure that I'd done everything.
180
00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:34,660
The other thing to note is that as I added a little bit of material (and I did tend to find that the process of making corrections involved
181
00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:41,050
adding a little bit of material to the thesis here and there), the page numbers would go out of whack.
182
00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:48,730
So it allowed me to say things like 'fixed awkward phrasing (brackets was on page 247 in the original; now page 249.)
183
00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:55,660
And that meant I could go and check things very quickly. I then made the decision when I was.
184
00:18:55,660 --> 00:19:00,430
Resubmitting - well, not resubmitting, when I was submitting the revised thesis, I should say,
185
00:19:00,430 --> 00:19:05,560
with the minor corrections incorporated - to send in the spreadsheet alongside it.
186
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:13,210
There's no requirement to do that, but I thought it might improve my chances of not being sent back again with corrections.
187
00:19:13,210 --> 00:19:22,330
And indeed I was actually told that my internal examiner very much appreciated that, specially because it made her life a lot easier.
188
00:19:22,330 --> 00:19:27,040
So that was my next question: so what happened when you'd done the corrections?
189
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:34,570
So when I'd done the corrections, there was a period of waiting. So you submitted them again, but just directly to the internal examiner,
190
00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:38,830
was that correct? I actually submitted them to the postgraduate administration team.
191
00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:47,480
Yes. Rather than to the Examiner directly. It's their job then to to pass that on and indeed to manage the process.
192
00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,660
And then you had another period of waiting. I did.
193
00:19:50,660 --> 00:19:57,290
I had a slightly longer period of waiting than the period between the the viva and the and the report,
194
00:19:57,290 --> 00:20:00,320
which is perhaps understandable because it's the way these things work.
195
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:10,340
Again, it's a perfectly normal thing because at some point your examiner, internal examiner, needs to sit down and read the corrections.
196
00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:19,310
And, you know, depending on how minor they are, you know, even if you know they are the kind of things that you're talking about,
197
00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:24,680
it will take some time for them to read and digest and reflect.
198
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,100
And so it's not something that can be done kind of ad hoc.
199
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:32,450
It's something that they need to kind of focus on. So sometimes it will take a few weeks to get back to you,
200
00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:38,240
although it might be worth thinking about how you can make your life easier for your internal examiners if that one of reviewing it,
201
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,130
such as, for example, with a spreadsheet, because that would help the internal examiner to track their progress as well.
202
00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:46,130
And that may have from a purely selfish perspective made them a little better
203
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:50,150
disposed towards me while they were making those comments on the corrections.
204
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:53,570
I'm yeah, I'm not sure it can influence their decision, but it shouldn't -
205
00:20:53,570 --> 00:21:03,570
But it for certain can't hurt. Exactly. So. So how did you find out that the corrections have been approved? Via email,
206
00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:11,040
Actually! I got an email saying that my corrections had been approved and I had been recommended for an award.
207
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:18,900
Effectively the the next meeting of the appropriate committee would review things and hopefully approve it.
208
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:24,180
That went through, I think, on something like the 8th or the 9th of February.
209
00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:28,230
And then on the 11th my birthday, I actually got confirmation.
210
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:32,310
I got the infamous email that begins 'Dear Doctor Surname'.
211
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:37,230
So 'Dear Dr. Mills'. What a birthday present! I know, right?
212
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:46,980
Thank you so much to Connor, Daniella and Edward for their time and insight into their process of receiving and doing their minor corrections.
213
00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:51,750
But of course, minor corrections is only part of the story.
214
00:21:51,750 --> 00:22:00,750
In our next episode, we'll be talking to researchers about the process of doing major corrections. And that's it for this episode.
215
00:22:00,750 --> 00:22:03,900
Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe, and join me
216
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:30,552
next time, where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in between.
Wednesday Oct 13, 2021
Researcher Takeover - Talking about Thematic Analysis
Wednesday Oct 13, 2021
Wednesday Oct 13, 2021
Are you just starting out with qualitative research? Or perhaps you have experience in other forms of qualitative research but want to learn a bit more about Thematic Analysis specifically? You’ve come to the right place. In this podcast we (three early career researchers) talk about our understanding and experiences of conducting Thematic Analysis (TA) with the help of NVivo Software. We delve under the umbrella term of TA to ask, what is TA? Why did it appeal to our different research projects? And, of course, no research project is complete without a few stumbling blocks along the way, so we talk about those as well.
To polish off and add a little extra shine to the podcast we include a short interview with Dr. Katherine Ashbullby, Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Exeter, who shares her knowledge and experience of TA with the benefit of her experience in the field.
Resources
NVivo QSR International (2021)
For more information about NVivo and a range of training resources visit the NVivo website:
https://www.qsrinternational.com/nvivo-qualitative-data-analysis-software/home/
Sandelowski M, Barroso J. (2003) Classifying the findings in qualitative studies. Qual Health Res. 13(7):905–923.
Braun V, Clarke, V (2019) Reflecting on reflexive thematic analysis, Qualitative Research in Sport, Exercise and Health, 11:4, 589-597, DOI 10.1080/2159676X.2019.1628806 [this paper was referred to as ‘the 2016 one’ by Emily in the podcast]
Braun V, Clarke V. (2021) Can I use TA? Should I use TA? Should I not use TA? Comparing reflexive thematic analysis and other pattern-based qualitative analytic
approaches. Couns Psychother Res.;21:37–47. https://doi.org/10.1002/capr.12360
Victoria Clarke has tweeted a useful twitter thread on the Big Q/small q qualitative distinction, which be accessed through the following link: https://twitter.com/drvicclarke/status/1444258228439764993?s=20
YouTube videos by Victoria Clarke on Thematic Analysis: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLBw6Qig8KBId9YuIMzAg7w
Kiger M.E., Varpio L. (2020) Thematic analysis of qualitative data: AMEE Guide No. 131, Medical Teacher, 42:8, 846-854, DOI: 10.1080/0142159X.2020.1755030
Contact and Feedback
This podcast is supported by the GW4 institutions – Bristol, Bath, Cardiff, and Exeter – as part of their NVivo Resource Development project, a pool of resources for researchers wishing to get started with NVivo software.
We hope that you enjoyed our podcast. We’d love to hear how you found it. Share your feedback with any of the GW4 doctoral college Twitter accounts:
@ExeterDoctoral @DoctoralBath @bristoldc
Thank you for listening!
A big thank you from us, Ailsa Naismith, Merve Mollaahmetoglu and Emily Taylor, for listening and we wish you all the best in your research endeavours.
Podcast transcript:
1
00:00:09,210 --> 00:00:20,730
Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, a fortnightly podcast where we talk to guests about research, development and everything in between.
2
00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:31,380
This week is a special episode with three guest hosts, Ailsa Merve and Emily from the University of Bristol and Exeter.
3
00:00:31,380 --> 00:00:39,050
You're listening to a podcast on thematic analysis and how to tease meaning from qualitative data.
4
00:00:39,050 --> 00:00:41,960
If you're interested about thematic analysis,
5
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:50,480
keep listening for some insights from three researchers from the University of Exeter and Bristol who have been through the process.
6
00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:58,160
We're also going to hear a little bit from an expert on thematic analysis who shares their key tips on the process.
7
00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,380
I'm Ailsa and I work at Earth Sciences at the University of Bristol.
8
00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:13,400
I'm here with Merve working in psychology and Emily, who works in the College of Medicine and Health, and both are at the University of Exeter.
9
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,940
Hi there. Hi. Great.
10
00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:24,230
So lovely to chat today. And let's make some introductions.
11
00:01:24,230 --> 00:01:33,590
I myself am a volcanologist, and I started using thematic analysis to study how people remember past volcanic eruptions.
12
00:01:33,590 --> 00:01:41,930
How did both of you get into the topic from what backgrounds? Yes, my name is Merve and I'm in the psychology department.
13
00:01:41,930 --> 00:01:48,560
So I started using thematic analysis to understand experiences of people who were being ketamine for the treatment,
14
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,790
who were being given ketamine for the treatment of alcohol use disorders.
15
00:01:52,790 --> 00:02:02,240
Yeah. How about you? I'm Emily and I use thematic analysis for my project looking at independent and older people.
16
00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,370
And this was a mixed method analysis. So I was using quantitative and qualitative data.
17
00:02:07,370 --> 00:02:13,860
So I found thematic analysis with some of its flexibility was really quite helpful for that.
18
00:02:13,860 --> 00:02:21,690
That's really interesting. It sounds like we're coming from very different backgrounds and using thematic analysis in different ways,
19
00:02:21,690 --> 00:02:35,220
but for those people who for those listeners who are not so familiar with thematic analysis, how would we define that message to them?
20
00:02:35,220 --> 00:02:36,480
That's a really good question.
21
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:45,420
And I think one thing to understand is that thematic analysis is not a single method, but it's used as an umbrella term for a family of methods.
22
00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:52,980
And as Emily mentioned, it can be flexible in both theoretically, but also in the way that it can be used with inductive.
23
00:02:52,980 --> 00:02:59,400
So data driven and deductive, so theory driven approaches and approaches to coding.
24
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:06,150
And it can also capture both semantics, explicit or latent implicit meanings and data.
25
00:03:06,150 --> 00:03:07,860
So what is actually thematic analysis?
26
00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:17,760
So it is a pattern based qualitative method and it's considered to belong to the phenomenological or experiential qualitative research tradition.
27
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:25,410
So it tries to understand exploration of participants subjective experiences and making sense of their.
28
00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:34,410
I think the only thing I can think to add is some people would say it's sort of in the middle in terms of descriptive vs. interpretive.
29
00:03:34,410 --> 00:03:38,830
Some people would argue it can go any place on the scale depending on how you use it.
30
00:03:38,830 --> 00:03:44,730
But I think it can you sort of sit in the middle? Yeah, and I definitely agree with that.
31
00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:51,570
And I think that ties in with what Merve says about it could be an inductive or deductive
32
00:03:51,570 --> 00:03:59,160
approach that you kind of start with a you start with a theory of what you're expecting to see.
33
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,990
And you might find that in your research you confirm that, or conversely,
34
00:04:03,990 --> 00:04:11,040
you might start with almost kind of no expectations of what you're going to find in your research.
35
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:15,900
And then you build up your themes as you as you go along.
36
00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:23,340
And I think that that is one of the really good things about thematic analysis,
37
00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:32,100
the flexibility that you mention, Emily and Merve, you use this term of pattern based methods.
38
00:04:32,100 --> 00:04:39,710
I'm kind of interested in that. How could you elaborate on that pattern based, similar pattern based?
39
00:04:39,710 --> 00:04:45,150
I'm referring to qualitative analysis methods that focus on analysing patterns
40
00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:50,170
of meaning across data items or cases and a qualitative qualitative data set.
41
00:04:50,170 --> 00:04:54,510
So what I mean by data items are cases. I'm referring to participants.
42
00:04:54,510 --> 00:05:03,960
So call it a thematic analysis is one approach, one pattern based approach that others, such as qualitative content analysis,
43
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:12,960
IPA, grounded theory, reflexive thematic analysis, the one I just mentioned, and also a pattern based discourse analysis.
44
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:19,590
I guess pattern based methods are different than other qualitative methods that examine,
45
00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:25,110
for example, the more fine grained or interactional work of speech,
46
00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:33,390
such as conversation, analysis, or it's also different from methods that focus on biographies or stories such as narrative analysis.
47
00:05:33,390 --> 00:05:40,980
So that's how we can distinguish thematic analysis from other types of qualitative analysis approaches.
48
00:05:40,980 --> 00:05:46,080
Emily, did you have anything to add? No. Again, I think you've put it really well.
49
00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:58,320
I think one of the things about it being pattern based, so it also lends to it being a useful foundational tool for for other qualitative methods.
50
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:08,280
So grounded theory and an IPA, I think both kind of expand on and of some of the concepts of thematic analysis,
51
00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:14,320
although thematic analysis is definitelu argued as a standalone method in itself.
52
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,130
I just realised we haven't quite defined what it is, and for me, I initially forgot,
53
00:06:19,130 --> 00:06:24,850
well, not forgot, but it's quite a long road, so we should probably specify that.
54
00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:30,650
I think it's interpretative phenomenological analysis, just as a note to the listener.
55
00:06:30,650 --> 00:06:38,530
Yeah, good point. Very nicely pronounced. I'm always like shying away from saying it because it's such a long one.
56
00:06:38,530 --> 00:06:47,400
But yet when we say IPA, that's what we're referring to. Got you got you, not the IPA beer
57
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:52,240
That would be a great type of uh. I'd be very interested. Yeah.
58
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,150
Emily, I really liked what you picked up on in that thematic analysis can be kind of standalone,
59
00:06:58,150 --> 00:07:04,030
but it also is the foundation for a lot of different other types of analysis.
60
00:07:04,030 --> 00:07:10,990
I think that's really key and that for me in my research was something I instinctively felt.
61
00:07:10,990 --> 00:07:21,730
So I haven't done any other types of qualitative analysis than the analysis, but it kind of feels when you're doing it that it's so,
62
00:07:21,730 --> 00:07:27,970
so powerful and so flexible that you could really use it for and other other methods.
63
00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:35,500
And yeah, I wondered I mean, like I've said, I haven't done anything else apart from thematic analysis.
64
00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:47,350
But I wondered if you had both worked on some of these other methods that that you mentioned Merve and whether you wanted to kind of
65
00:07:47,350 --> 00:07:57,070
briefly elaborate on on how perhaps whether you liked them and whether thematic analysis itself really informed those other methods.
66
00:07:57,070 --> 00:08:06,820
So I will I am I have only really used thematic analysis, although I didn't really realise that it was counted as thematic analysis,
67
00:08:06,820 --> 00:08:10,570
because going back to the comment you made earlier is an umbrella term.
68
00:08:10,570 --> 00:08:18,340
So I actually use framework analysis, which if you go by and Clarke's definition,
69
00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:22,840
that would be counted as sort of a code book type of thematic analysis.
70
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:30,280
And so that's just it's not as rigid as another form, which is coding reliability,
71
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:40,660
which is very keen on having accurate codes that are repeatable and have different researchers.
72
00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:48,760
So that's kind of the key quality of coding reliability. And then you've got the bottom part version of reflexive analysis,
73
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:56,830
which is much more recognising the generation and and sending of the researcher and the impact to the researcher on things.
74
00:08:56,830 --> 00:09:02,530
So a code book, which is where mine sits this framework is sort of in between those two,
75
00:09:02,530 --> 00:09:09,220
because it does have a framework which has some sort of deductive codes coming in to start with.
76
00:09:09,220 --> 00:09:16,040
And for me that was useful because that related to the mixed methods sort of side of my project that I,
77
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:24,700
I did want to explore and sort of the more abstract and deeper kind of meanings within my studies.
78
00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:30,910
But I also needed to relate it to the quantitative work as well. So then use the deductive side for that.
79
00:09:30,910 --> 00:09:38,230
Mm hmm. That's so interesting, Emily. And I think that kind of brings us to a point that I wanted to mention about this,
80
00:09:38,230 --> 00:09:44,950
because we defined we said that thematic analysis is an umbrella term, but we haven't really quite defined what sits under that.
81
00:09:44,950 --> 00:09:51,280
And you refer to these sort of three main approaches within themantic analysis that Braun and Clark mentioned.
82
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,860
So, you know, you said the coding reliability approaches,
83
00:09:53,860 --> 00:10:03,870
the reflexive approaches and the codebook approaches with that continuum from coding reliability to reflexive themantic analysis.
84
00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:08,080
And, yeah, I think that's an important distinction to make.
85
00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:13,930
And I think what I would add to that is that Braun and Clark refer to coding reliability.
86
00:10:13,930 --> 00:10:17,710
Thematic analysis is what's called a small q qualitative research.
87
00:10:17,710 --> 00:10:24,410
So when you use qualitative tools and techniques with a post positivist research values
88
00:10:24,410 --> 00:10:33,910
so sort of the research values that underpin quantitative research and emphasise sort of the objective and replicable knowledge as ideal,
89
00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:39,850
whereas the reflexive thematic analysis sits more within the big Q qualitative research
90
00:10:39,850 --> 00:10:45,640
which where qualitative research is not simply conceptualised as tools and techniques,
91
00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,350
what that means is qualitative, both in terms of techniques but also values.
92
00:10:49,350 --> 00:10:55,150
So I think that's a really interesting discussion. Yeah, that is an interesting discussion, rather.
93
00:10:55,150 --> 00:11:01,120
And I wanted to ask you a bit more about that, because I still find some of these terms a bit confusing.
94
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:07,570
So you kind of said that the small q qualitative research is use qualitative tools,
95
00:11:07,570 --> 00:11:15,610
but you have values of, I'm guessing, understanding that there's maybe a objective truth out.
96
00:11:15,610 --> 00:11:16,750
There are things to learn,
97
00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:25,840
whereas the big Q qualitative would be both that you use the qualitative tools but also have a qualitative approach in that you say,
98
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,910
well, the truth is subjective and this is my interpretation of what you said,
99
00:11:30,910 --> 00:11:36,350
but perhaps you can elaborate because it's always it's good to hear in your own words.
100
00:11:36,350 --> 00:11:42,220
I've just got a note here that the big Q is around encompassing the philosophy and procedure.
101
00:11:42,220 --> 00:11:51,460
And so sort of what you were saying. Yeah, I guess the point to make here is that there's the what is referred to as small q qualitative research,
102
00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:56,830
which uses maybe the quantitative research values within a qualitative method.
103
00:11:56,830 --> 00:12:04,870
And then there's the big Q qualitative research which where the methods and the values are aligned in qualitative research.
104
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:08,320
Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it actually.
105
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:15,670
And I guess you can see where you sit within this continuum of thematic analysis or qualitative research more generally,
106
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:20,170
depending on what the needs of the research that you're conducting are.
107
00:12:20,170 --> 00:12:25,120
And I think the reference for that is from Sandelowski and Barroso in 2003,
108
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,200
just from reading this morning that we might be able to put that in the notes.
109
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,720
And you've also both mentioned Braun and Clarke.
110
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:39,190
So I think this would be this is a really key article to it, kind of in reference for people to be able to look back on.
111
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:45,910
It seems that I think all of us have found that a really useful resource from our very different backgrounds.
112
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:51,820
I think one of the really interesting things about Braun and Clark is that they do they have the original paper in 2006,
113
00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:56,610
but they have done lots of papers since and encourage you to read those papers because they.
114
00:12:56,610 --> 00:13:05,790
You reflect on what how they've learnt to learn from teaching about as well, and I think that makes and is really helpful,
115
00:13:05,790 --> 00:13:15,420
but also quite informative for a new researcher to realise actually there was all this reflection and all of this has gone before.
116
00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:22,710
Yeah, definitely, if you're just starting with qualitative research, don't just go and read their paper from 2006, that was 15 years ago.
117
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:28,650
And there they have so many more papers come out since then that are really informative.
118
00:13:28,650 --> 00:13:33,210
So I think that's one of the most referenced papers in the whole world.
119
00:13:33,210 --> 00:13:35,580
I'm not entirely sure it's about hundred thousand times.
120
00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:43,540
But, you know, I think they also emphasise that things have moved on from the their understanding at that time.
121
00:13:43,540 --> 00:13:51,470
So I would definitely recommend reading some of their most recent papers, which we can link in the show notes as well.
122
00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:57,710
This is a mad numbers of references. Yeah, it's crazy, but it's also, I think,
123
00:13:57,710 --> 00:14:07,220
confidence building that these people who have written such a seminal resource have also shown that in their subsequent papers,
124
00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:09,260
they've been pretty reflexive.
125
00:14:09,260 --> 00:14:21,890
The because this is kind of a theme or a common feature of thematic analysis itself that's kind of going over and and refining looking back on.
126
00:14:21,890 --> 00:14:29,070
So to have some of the most prominent practitioners of it do it in their own work and in their own understanding,
127
00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:37,910
that's pretty, pretty great, I think.
128
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:48,770
I just want to say one other aspect perhaps that we haven't discussed in terms of thematic analysis is, is the issue of method versus methodology.
129
00:14:48,770 --> 00:14:55,700
And I think before I started doing qualitative research, before I started being involved with qualitative research,
130
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,210
I kind of assumed method and methodology were the same thing.
131
00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:07,110
So I kind of used interchangeably. But they actually refer to different things and I think it would be really useful for people to know.
132
00:15:07,110 --> 00:15:15,690
And so the way methodology is defined is that methodology refers to theoretically informed frameworks for research.
133
00:15:15,690 --> 00:15:21,470
So this include things like IPA discourse, analysis, and on the other hand,
134
00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:29,000
method refers to technically it's sort of not technically, theoretically independent tools and techniques such as thematic analysis.
135
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:38,630
So, you know, from the examples that we've given earlier about pattern based methods from pattern based methods and methodologies,
136
00:15:38,630 --> 00:15:45,140
thematic analysis and qualitative content analysis are are considered pattern based methods.
137
00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:54,020
So these offer people, researchers, tools and techniques that are either a theoretical or theoretically flexible in the case of thematic analysis,
138
00:15:54,020 --> 00:16:01,610
for example, and things like IPA, grounded theory, discourse, analysis, these are considered methodology.
139
00:16:01,610 --> 00:16:09,230
So these have theoretically informed framework's research. That's an important distinction to clarify for people.
140
00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:18,590
Yeah, Merve I think you nailed it. I mean, I, I still struggle with method versus methodology, but I think that's that's quite clear.
141
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:22,630
And for me, it's kind of useful, you know, like what's in an ology
142
00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:34,700
Like, what's the difference that I think I think I mean, one one one thing that's just occurred to me as as you describe that Merve is that,
143
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:40,010
you know, the set method, as I understand it, is theory.
144
00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:45,510
So you said it's the theoretically independent. So I could approach that with different research philosophies.
145
00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:53,240
Yes. And the methodology is is informed by a particular research philosophy.
146
00:16:53,240 --> 00:17:00,290
I think in a way like what Emily said was really helpful in understanding that themantic analysis is theoretically flexible because, you know,
147
00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:06,290
she said how she adapted it to suit the needs of her research project in the
148
00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:11,330
sense that she still needed things to be reliable and replicable in a sense.
149
00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:18,740
So she didn't use perhaps the reflexive thematic analysis, which doesn't necessarily concern itself with reliability.
150
00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:26,750
And it understands that themes are quite subjective. So it doesn't try to reduce that research researcher bias.
151
00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:33,360
So, you know, she's adopted the thematic analysis to her research values and philosophy.
152
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:35,430
Yeah.
153
00:17:35,430 --> 00:17:45,270
Yeah, yeah, I really I keep coming back to that that that thing you said the start, I believe, how you liked the flexibility of thematic analysis.
154
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:52,030
And I also in my research, that was a really big pool for me because I had this this.
155
00:17:52,030 --> 00:17:56,580
Yeah, I just I just wanted to have a powerful tool that could do what I wanted it to do.
156
00:17:56,580 --> 00:18:08,760
So, yeah. And I wanted to ask if there were other other appeals of thematic analysis that really led you to choose it to to analyse your research.
157
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:16,830
That's a good question, I think. It sort of led me on to think of something else, which may not be quite answering the question,
158
00:18:16,830 --> 00:18:25,770
but I think it's sort of relevant and I don't want to ask again, I think it's a 2016 paper.
159
00:18:25,770 --> 00:18:32,970
They talk about and using it as a tool to be used flexibly, but also with knowingness.
160
00:18:32,970 --> 00:18:38,190
So and thinking about although it can be flexible with the very thinking about
161
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:42,750
what I still think about what's underpinning it and how you're using that.
162
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:46,650
And for me, this it just worked.
163
00:18:46,650 --> 00:18:52,470
And I think the conversation it was having going on in my research is looking
164
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:58,440
at the quantitative and qualitative and how they speak to each other or not,
165
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:05,610
and the fact that I could use a guess sort of deductive and inductive within that analysis.
166
00:19:05,610 --> 00:19:09,150
And also the fact is looking at patterns so I can only see other patterns
167
00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:16,440
between the two types of data and what a contrast and just works well for me,
168
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:25,200
I think. Mm hmm. I think what I wanted to also say is something that Emily said is that it can do both.
169
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:33,930
It sort of sits between descriptive and analytical approaches. And again, that fits within more descriptive, more themantic approach,
170
00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:44,010
a systematic analysis versus more light and versus approaches that try to on the cover more detail and implicit meanings.
171
00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:49,410
So I think that's some other benefit of thematic analysis that you can sort of do both of those things with it.
172
00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:51,430
Yeah, yeah, I like that.
173
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:59,790
So I imagine that if you're under covering a theme, a theme could be something that someone's kind of one of your, let's say, an interview.
174
00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:06,660
He says something that you say, well, this can't this text can be taken as read a descriptive theme or it's kind of
175
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:11,850
the meaning behind the words is the kind of latent thing that you pick up.
176
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:12,900
And yeah.
177
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:21,510
Emily, from your your what you described, it sounds like you like the flexibility, but there was also some kind of structure underpinning it.
178
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:25,710
So you didn't kind of just jump in and say, oh, I'm going to do whatever,
179
00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:31,350
but that you use thematci analysis to kind of marry that quantitative and qualitative analysis.
180
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:46,860
And I really like that. I think that's. Yeah, a really, really positive thing of thematic analysis.
181
00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:56,440
So one thing I was going to go on to after that was that I think that we all use the software NVivo, for for thematic analysis.
182
00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:07,530
And I wondered if you felt that it was easy to kind of marry the analysis of the different qualitative and quantitative data in NVivo
183
00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:14,980
And that's also a good question. It certainly works well, I think can be very for me, it works how I think.
184
00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:23,640
So if I had a word my interview transcripts in paper form, I would probably be highlighting and then putting little notes in the margin.
185
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,040
And actually, NVivo allows me to do that because I can highlight it and then make annotations.
186
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,540
Or if I'm actually thinking about organising it, I can highlight to encode it.
187
00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:39,130
And that works. I believe it's a quantitative code or a qualitative code.
188
00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:46,020
Yeah. So it just works for me. And the benefit of and we believe we're doing that on paper is that I can then
189
00:21:46,020 --> 00:21:50,340
take those bits that I've coded and move them around and look at them together.
190
00:21:50,340 --> 00:21:59,010
Hmm. I mean, it's a great tool, isn't it, because, you know, before computers and NVivo, I imagine people had to do this by hand.
191
00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:09,270
And I think they would print out the interviews and they would highlight cut and paste, move around, you know, the whole floor being covered by paper.
192
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:14,460
And, you know, I guess in a way you might become more involved with your data,
193
00:22:14,460 --> 00:22:20,640
but it also is very difficult to manage and share with other people and also very prone to getting lost.
194
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,540
So and we were kind of does all of that in a computer system.
195
00:22:24,540 --> 00:22:31,710
And I think it's really helpful in terms of collaborating with people, because we know that, you know, in most qualitative research,
196
00:22:31,710 --> 00:22:36,780
interviews are coded by more than one people one person, one researcher,
197
00:22:36,780 --> 00:22:42,870
or even if it is just coded by you, you still probably want to share it with other people.
198
00:22:42,870 --> 00:22:46,410
So it's a great tool for facilitating facilitating that.
199
00:22:46,410 --> 00:22:49,500
Yeah. So there's a lot of tools around how to work with other people.
200
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:57,970
And this is one of the tools that we've created for the for the enviable resources as part of the GW4 network.
201
00:22:57,970 --> 00:23:00,300
So if you are in one of those institutions,
202
00:23:00,300 --> 00:23:07,170
you will be able to access access some information about how to facilitate collaboration on NVivo as well, which we will link to at the end.
203
00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:08,190
Yeah, I love that.
204
00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:17,830
My personal experience I remember the first my very first getting into thematic analysis and having only three interviews to analyse,
205
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:25,020
but the transcripts werfe each like 20 pages long. And before I got to use NVivo, I was just like, you know, writing down texts and stuff.
206
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:32,190
And I had I think I had interesting themes, but it was like impossible to organise that or to get a sense of,
207
00:23:32,190 --> 00:23:40,290
you know, what was significant or what was just, you know, a kind of small idea, what could be descriptive.
208
00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:41,930
And I think in particular,
209
00:23:41,930 --> 00:23:52,530
the kind of latent themes for me were much harder to to to tease out and to understand when I just had big stacks of paper coming.
210
00:23:52,530 --> 00:24:06,090
And for me, uploading these transcripts into and being able to organise themes through notes and kind of linked them was like really a game changer.
211
00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:12,900
Yeah. Was it the same for you? Every. Yeah, yeah, there's a couple of things you said that it made me think I mean,
212
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,510
I find it really helpful that you can sort of have everything in one place.
213
00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:25,710
You can have you can use memos to be to maybe reflexive memos or so you can have a project log, as almost, maybe your diary.
214
00:24:25,710 --> 00:24:27,630
And because I don't know if you're anything like me,
215
00:24:27,630 --> 00:24:34,440
but we have bits of paper everywhere that have little notes that you can have it all on and NVivo, which is quite handy.
216
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:44,310
And also, um, I'm a very visual thinker. So some of the visualisation tools, that computer has had been really helpful, I think.
217
00:24:44,310 --> 00:24:46,560
Mm hmm. Yeah, I was just about to mention that.
218
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:52,530
And I think another really cool tool is if you're using thematic analysis with a more quantitative approach,
219
00:24:52,530 --> 00:24:56,670
let's say you can run coding comparison a query.
220
00:24:56,670 --> 00:25:04,800
So if you have multiple people coding on the same project, you can automatically compare how much do they agree in terms of their coding?
221
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,850
And you can highlight differences and you can highlight areas where they disagree.
222
00:25:08,850 --> 00:25:15,060
But it can be really useful tool to enable comparisons of integrated reliability and things like that.
223
00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:22,710
That's really useful to know because I have only ever coded as a I've only ever
224
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:29,940
coded so low that going forward it could be a really useful thing to be able to,
225
00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:38,880
again, kind of reflect on whether these systems are robust, if other researchers involved are kind of seeing those who are picking them out.
226
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:44,490
And if not, then there's an interesting dialogue to be had there with other researchers.
227
00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:48,600
And yeah, but I have I have also used the visualisation tools.
228
00:25:48,600 --> 00:26:00,020
I don't know if both of you use, but I'm a particular fan of the word clouds.
229
00:26:00,020 --> 00:26:06,470
I mean, talking about, you know, we've talked a lot about all the benefits of thematic analysis,
230
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:15,140
and I think listeners will be able to tell that we're all fans. But I know that with everything there comes some challenges.
231
00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:26,330
And for instance, I found initially that it was quite difficult to know how much significance to ascribe to a theme that was emerging in my data.
232
00:26:26,330 --> 00:26:34,400
And I wanted to ask you both, you know, any particular challenges that you've come across while doing thematic analysis?
233
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:43,340
Yeah, I think that's a good point about describing how much weight to ascribe to the different bits of coding,
234
00:26:43,340 --> 00:26:48,620
and especially where we've talked about coming from Quantitative maybe a more quantitative background where
235
00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:54,200
you may be looking at Frequency's and things like that and actually realising that in thematic analysis,
236
00:26:54,200 --> 00:27:01,490
actually some of the very important and possibly the richest themes can be ones that don't appear all that often.
237
00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:03,860
But they they're really potent when they do.
238
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:11,540
And they might also encourage you to explore a bit more into the other of the transcripts as well to see whether it does actually come up.
239
00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:16,760
It might just have been a bit more subtle than some of the others. That's really interesting.
240
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:27,050
I guess for me, one of the challenges was getting my head around sort of this distinction between what's referred to as themes and domain summaries,
241
00:27:27,050 --> 00:27:34,640
especially within reflexive thematic analysis. So now now I do understand what domain summaries are.
242
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,840
So domain summaries are basically a summary of what's been said, everything that's been said about a particular topic.
243
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,670
So, for example, if I asked the participants a question, I might have asked something like,
244
00:27:46,670 --> 00:27:50,660
what are some of the negative experiences you've had with this treatment?
245
00:27:50,660 --> 00:27:55,280
And if I just summarise everything that said, that would be a domain summary,
246
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,080
but it doesn't actually uncover the latents meanings behind what they've said.
247
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,360
So the themes now I understand within reflect systematic analysis.
248
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:14,780
The themes are sort of uniting the more implicit and or latent meanings behind what people have said, not just summarising what everyone has said.
249
00:28:14,780 --> 00:28:20,810
So, for example, a list of people have reported these as negative effects of the treatment sort of thing.
250
00:28:20,810 --> 00:28:31,460
So initially that was quite a challenge for me. But again, there are some useful resources around this as well, which we can link to.
251
00:28:31,460 --> 00:28:34,640
We're going to have so many links in the show. Great.
252
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:49,190
Yeah, I think one other challenge I had starting off with is that I had some research questions that I think were led by my my certain approach,
253
00:28:49,190 --> 00:29:00,860
feeling that I feeling that I when I was coding my data, I wasn't actually getting answers that matched particularly well to the questions.
254
00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:06,380
And so initially that that felt quite worrisome.
255
00:29:06,380 --> 00:29:16,580
And then I think that what was helpful was understanding that the the themes that were emerging could then inform the questions.
256
00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:23,410
And in my case, I was able to do more interviews to then kind of revise the question.
257
00:29:23,410 --> 00:29:26,180
So, again, it was that thing that, you know,
258
00:29:26,180 --> 00:29:34,850
just because the things didn't necessarily answer exactly the questions that I had posed, that didn't mean that they're wrong.
259
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:40,850
It was a case of of kind of recasting things, you know, re re.
260
00:29:40,850 --> 00:29:46,460
Yeah, recreating things and reflecting to understand that things could change.
261
00:29:46,460 --> 00:29:54,170
So I'd say moving from a kind of fixed mindset of, you know, the my hypothesis is wrong,
262
00:29:54,170 --> 00:29:58,970
which as a as a natural scientist, that is kind of that is the approach that we take.
263
00:29:58,970 --> 00:30:04,010
And it's like a very ingrained thing that we don't really reflect on research philosophy at
264
00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:10,190
all to meeting something that was like a lot more reflective and a lot more understanding
265
00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:20,030
of the subjectivity of meaning and of experience that I think is really key to thematic
266
00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:27,260
analysis and for me and maybe for you guys too really attractive to this kind of research.
267
00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:34,400
And I think in a way, what you're saying is that your research questions were informed by your data as well,
268
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,570
rather than the other way around, which usually is the case with quantitative research.
269
00:30:38,570 --> 00:30:44,360
You have a theory which informs the research questions and then you get the data to support or not supported,
270
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,490
whereas here you got some data and that led you to revise your research questions.
271
00:30:50,490 --> 00:31:01,200
Yes, exactly. Nail on the head. And that is a really exciting for me everything exciting new ways to do research.
272
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:09,020
Yeah. I think one one interesting thing about qualitative research generally is that it can generate a lot of hypotheses.
273
00:31:09,020 --> 00:31:17,240
Right. So I think that's one of the things that I've enjoyed so much about being involved in qualitative research is that you get such a deep insight
274
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:26,450
into a topic and it can sort of generate more questions for research that either you answer with qualitative or with quantitative research.
275
00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:36,170
Yeah, I think, you know, so your example was sort of just thinking about deductive and inductive that the deductive is it can be very useful
276
00:31:36,170 --> 00:31:42,080
sometimes to kind of if you really need to pinpoint a particular aspect and you've got that in your question.
277
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:50,090
But actually the inductive has that place to explore a bit further and may deviate from actually what that initial question was.
278
00:31:50,090 --> 00:31:52,580
But as you say, it's just that much more informative.
279
00:31:52,580 --> 00:32:01,610
And it's one of the I think one of the as it if it was one of the joys of qualitative research and how it can be really informative.
280
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:06,560
You're so right. And it's it's cool to think of OK to think of it as an ongoing process.
281
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:17,180
I think that that it's not kind of done and dusted it can kind of continually we can continually learn more and ascribe more meaning.
282
00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:23,570
Absolutely. I think there's several cases where it's been, you know, actually, although there might be steps,
283
00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:33,020
I think one of the papers we're looking at gets six steps to to or I think it's the reflectivity.
284
00:32:33,020 --> 00:32:38,660
But actually, although it might be presented as six steps, though, things are very much you kind of go cyclical,
285
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:47,750
you might get to step two and then have to go back to that one and you might just kind of keep reinforcing or learning more so it develops as you go,
286
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:55,130
which I think is very important as well. And that is part of the adding depth and richness to to your data as well.
287
00:32:55,130 --> 00:33:01,670
Definitely, yeah. I think before we wrap up, I just wanted to add something that might be reassuring to people.
288
00:33:01,670 --> 00:33:09,380
You know, if you're sort of thinking, is thematic analysis the right choice for me or, you know, how do I choose a type of analysis?
289
00:33:09,380 --> 00:33:14,090
I think what I found really interesting reading in one of Braun and Clark's paper,
290
00:33:14,090 --> 00:33:17,730
they're basically that they have a wealth of knowledge in this area.
291
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:24,740
So we refer to them a lot. But I think they say that considering and choosing an analytical approach is sort of more like
292
00:33:24,740 --> 00:33:29,810
deciding between which type of fruit you will choose to eat rather than deciding whether
293
00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:32,220
to have fruit a slice of cake or a burger.
294
00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:41,330
So they kind of emphasise that a lot of different pattern based methods for examples, for example, can have very similar outputs.
295
00:33:41,330 --> 00:33:47,690
So it is an important decision, but it's not choosing between an apple and a burger,
296
00:33:47,690 --> 00:33:53,940
but it's more choosing between the types of fruits, which I find quite a reassuring analogy.
297
00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:58,460
Yeah, I like that one. Yeah, great. For someone is indecisive as me.
298
00:33:58,460 --> 00:34:01,700
That's very helpful. Yeah. And I guess yeah.
299
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:08,840
There's a lot of resources around how to choose between different types of different types of pattern based methodology,
300
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,010
methods or methodologies, and there are similarities and differences.
301
00:34:12,010 --> 00:34:21,560
So I think one of their papers was comparing thematic analysis to different types of other types of pattern based methods or methodology,
302
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,800
which can be quite useful for some people to read. So we will link that as well.
303
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:36,640
Definitely, we'll we'll put that in the show notes, and so I think we'll wrap up there because it's been a really lovely and informative
304
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:42,460
discussion and we've talked around various aspects of thematic analysis,
305
00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:48,820
how we first came to you to join it or how we first came to use it in our research and the the
306
00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:55,600
benefits and some of its challenges and also some of the definitions of thematic analysis.
307
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:02,860
And for me, it's been a real pleasure to to host this and to share with you guys a really great discussion.
308
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:09,960
So I'd like to thank both of you. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it's been really interesting talking to you both about this.
309
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,430
I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Oh, it's lovely.
310
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:20,420
And, yeah, we've we've learnt a huge well, I personally learnt a huge amount and hope the listeners have to.
311
00:35:20,420 --> 00:35:25,940
But as we've said at various points through the podcast we have,
312
00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:32,810
we will include a link in links in the show, notes to all of the resources that we've mentioned.
313
00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:44,680
So, again, a huge thanks to Merve and Emily for our conversation.
314
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:50,980
I have Dr. Kat Ashbullby with me right now. She's a lecturer in psychology at the University of Exeter.
315
00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:55,990
Kat, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself? Hi, thank you so much for having me.
316
00:35:55,990 --> 00:36:02,770
So, yeah, so I'm a lecturer in psychology at the university and I did all my training at Exeter as well.
317
00:36:02,770 --> 00:36:05,830
And I'm really interested in qualitative methods.
318
00:36:05,830 --> 00:36:13,180
A lot of my research has involved qualitative work and my background is in something called economic psychology,
319
00:36:13,180 --> 00:36:17,830
which is how people make decisions about everyday financial life.
320
00:36:17,830 --> 00:36:22,150
So things like spending behaviour, saving behaviour, money and relationships.
321
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:29,530
And then after my PhD, I worked in outside academia in a charity as well, doing research about health and wellbeing at work.
322
00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:34,360
So I've had an opportunity to work in different areas using qualitative research.
323
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,520
Yeah, great. And the way we know each other is obviously you've been really helpful in our qualitative
324
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:47,140
project and you have a lot more expertise in this topic than I do or any of us do.
325
00:36:47,140 --> 00:36:56,170
And so we have this we're having this podcast to give a bit of our resource to postgraduate researchers who want to get into qualitative research,
326
00:36:56,170 --> 00:37:02,680
specifically thematic analysis. And so we have had some definitions of thematic analysis.
327
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,280
But I wonder if you could give us like a brief definition in your own words?
328
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:16,450
Yeah, of course. A thematic analysis is perhaps best understood as like an umbrella term for different approaches to making sense of qualitative data.
329
00:37:16,450 --> 00:37:22,900
So there's some really nice resources that you can find online, actually, through Victoria Clarke, like on YouTube, for example,
330
00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:29,350
where she talks about the different types of thematic analysis that might be helpful for some of your sort of listeners to go to.
331
00:37:29,350 --> 00:37:37,330
But really, it's just the idea that you're making sense of qualitative data through identifying themes is the very sort of base level.
332
00:37:37,330 --> 00:37:40,600
But then when you go into it, that's kind of different ways of doing that,
333
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,280
whether you're doing it in terms of like what you might have heard of a code book,
334
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,180
thematic analysis, where you've got kind of the more a description already,
335
00:37:49,180 --> 00:37:57,160
even before you've looked at your data of what you might want to find or like what is this more reflexive organic approach where
336
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:03,880
you're much more open to the data when you're going through is on a line by line basis looking at what the people are saying.
337
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:09,160
So you've got no idea before you start what your what your findings will be.
338
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:14,770
And that's quite different to the kind of code book approach where you might already have an idea of what your themes would look like.
339
00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:20,290
So there are these kind of differences within it. But yes, it's all about making sense of qualitative data.
340
00:38:20,290 --> 00:38:29,440
So whether that be from interviews or focus groups or an online source, yeah, that's reassuring that it matches up with what we discussed.
341
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:36,610
Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And I guess our perspective in this podcast has been from three researchers have mainly trained in
342
00:38:36,610 --> 00:38:43,240
quantitative research methods and coming into qualitative research methods later on in our research journeys.
343
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:45,370
So I wondered, in your experience,
344
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:52,370
what are some of the common mistakes people might make when they're using thematic analysis, for example, in our position?
345
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:56,950
Yeah. So I guess like from a positive starting point that is accessible,
346
00:38:56,950 --> 00:39:01,840
the masterclasses people from different backgrounds, I suppose there are like common, I guess,
347
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,280
mistakes people make in the it's getting used to like working in a completely different way,
348
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,980
isn't it, with the different kinds of language of research.
349
00:39:08,980 --> 00:39:16,870
So you're moving away from talking about kind of variables and control to talking about people's lived experiences.
350
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:21,160
So I guess that's something that just people not aren't necessarily always used to, you know,
351
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:29,260
moving away from the research tradition that they've been in to kind of open their eyes to a new way of doing research in terms of make mistakes.
352
00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:33,940
I guess maybe, you know, like we've just talked about, that definition of thematic analysis,
353
00:39:33,940 --> 00:39:38,290
I guess sometimes is some lack of understanding that it can actually be this umbrella term,
354
00:39:38,290 --> 00:39:42,340
that there are quite different things that you can do as kind of one thing.
355
00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:47,530
So I guess familiarise yourself with the different approaches to try and doing a bit more reading around.
356
00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:55,420
It's really helpful, I guess, as well. Also, sometimes people maybe underestimate the amount of work involved.
357
00:39:55,420 --> 00:40:00,730
So and I guess you know yourself from having done it, some people think it's just quite, very quick that you just,
358
00:40:00,730 --> 00:40:05,950
you know, suddenly have these themes, whereas in reality, it's actually quite a lot of work, isn't it?
359
00:40:05,950 --> 00:40:11,230
First we'll get the transcription and then code the data and then this kind of intrusive nature that
360
00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:16,210
you're going back between the data and your codes and developing it and the work that goes into that.
361
00:40:16,210 --> 00:40:25,390
People might underestimate Definitely And I think especially with the reflexive analysis, there's a lot of interpretative work that's involved.
362
00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:29,470
And yeah, and perhaps I might have made the same mistake in that thinking.
363
00:40:29,470 --> 00:40:33,640
It was a lot more descriptive than. Yeah, it really is.
364
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,780
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So definitely. So I guess that's another one isn't it, that that kind of take.
365
00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:42,680
So people get to the stage where they kind of got this descriptive sort of piece about their.
366
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,380
That it's taking at the next level of them, putting those things together to say, first of all, my key findings,
367
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:55,220
what does this mean in relation to my research question and Braun and Braun and Clark talk about the like, storybook theme.
368
00:40:55,220 --> 00:41:00,700
So that idea that you're really telling a story with your research first is kind of the bucket themes,
369
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:04,270
which is more like just shoving everything in there that, you know.
370
00:41:04,270 --> 00:41:11,470
So it's kind of a storybook thing where you're trying to say, you know, what's really going on here with my with my findings.
371
00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:16,390
That's really interesting. It reminds me of something that we discussed when we were doing the qualitative
372
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:21,490
analysis together about the difference between the domain summaries and the themes
373
00:41:21,490 --> 00:41:27,220
And I did mention this as one of the difficulties that I initially found with thematic in the podcast.
374
00:41:27,220 --> 00:41:33,370
But I wondered maybe if you can sort of give a more elaborate description of what that means.
375
00:41:33,370 --> 00:41:37,080
Yeah, I can try. Now, you did a really good job, though, with your paper, didn't you?
376
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:45,520
And so I think it was more like, you know, say with the Ketamine paper, you had, like, for example, all the different things that people experienced.
377
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:51,670
And and that's kind of if you're just writing that all down, that's kind of like what some people call like a domain summary.
378
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:53,830
It's like all different things that happened.
379
00:41:53,830 --> 00:42:00,040
But then taking that next level was then looking at, OK, so maybe these were really contradictory things.
380
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:05,380
These are about transformation. So it's like then those labels of like contradiction or transformation,
381
00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:09,300
which then become your themes in themselves rather than the list of experiences.
382
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,550
It's like taking in the next level. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah.
383
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:16,360
That's a really good description. And so what would you advise?
384
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:23,560
I think you sort of answered this, but what would you advise quantitatively, researchers who are new to qualitative methods or thematic analysis?
385
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Yeah, what I think doing some like, you know, more study or more reading, like I said, there's some really good online resources.
386
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:38,090
So Victoria Clarke has been really influential in, like, kind of defining and delineating what thematic analysis is.
387
00:42:38,090 --> 00:42:41,140
And she's got some really nice YouTube videos that are quite straightforward
388
00:42:41,140 --> 00:42:45,020
just to watch to introduce you to some of these things about thematic analysis.
389
00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:48,670
And there's also a lot of like papers around that as well that they've done recently,
390
00:42:48,670 --> 00:42:53,090
just talking about different stages of their analysis, I guess, as well.
391
00:42:53,090 --> 00:42:57,700
It's just about being open to a new way of working and a new kind of language
392
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:03,100
of research where you're more interested in different people's viewpoints, different people's lived experiences.
393
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:10,120
And it's not necessarily about the number of times somebody says something and trying to get out of that purely quantitative mindset.
394
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:15,460
It's as well as about, you know, the different range of experiences people are having and whether that's something that is
395
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:19,810
interesting and meaningful to your research and could be taken forward to explore more.
396
00:43:19,810 --> 00:43:25,540
Certainly. I was just going to say it's hard to get out of the quantitative mindset initially because, you know,
397
00:43:25,540 --> 00:43:31,540
when we were first approaching it, we were trying to define how many times or how many participants have said a certain thing.
398
00:43:31,540 --> 00:43:39,220
But then you've explained to us, you know, actually that's not very useful way of approaching things in qualitative research,
399
00:43:39,220 --> 00:43:44,950
because just because half of the people in this interview said this doesn't mean that half of the
400
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:51,670
people in the general public would say this or we're not approaching generalisability in the same way.
401
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:56,530
Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that's really tricky, because obviously, if you use and say an in-depth interview,
402
00:43:56,530 --> 00:44:02,950
it might be that because obviously with a certain of certainly structured interviews, you don't always follow exactly the same interview questions.
403
00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:09,760
So it might be that some people had the opportunity because they were asked or it just went down the avenue to talk about their views on something.
404
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,500
So they expressed it, whereas the other people in the other half of interviews might have had the opportunity, say,
405
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,950
rather than them not necessarily agreeing or bringing up as meaningful,
406
00:44:17,950 --> 00:44:21,850
it might not have just been part of the questions, whereas it was a questionnaire.
407
00:44:21,850 --> 00:44:25,780
Everybody's getting exactly the same things that you can kind of compare it.
408
00:44:25,780 --> 00:44:29,050
So I it's just getting used to that different way of thinking about things.
409
00:44:29,050 --> 00:44:36,250
But it is tricky because, you know, it can sometimes be interesting that every single person thinks something versus nobody.
410
00:44:36,250 --> 00:44:40,150
But, yeah, it's just getting that balance, isn't it, and thinking about it in a new way.
411
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:41,950
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
412
00:44:41,950 --> 00:44:51,910
So if we were to think a little bit about our philosophical position before approaching a qualitative research or more specifically thematic analysis,
413
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:56,440
do you think it's important to define this before starting with analysis?
414
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,350
And what how would you define your philosophical position? That's really difficult question to ask.
415
00:45:02,350 --> 00:45:05,860
That's a very good yeah. So I think in terms of yeah, there's all these different words,
416
00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:11,560
people can get quite confused about the symbology and ontology and philosophy, philosophical positions.
417
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:17,800
But I think a lot of it's about thinking about, OK, so what am I trying to find, am I like inductive?
418
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,550
So am I really driven by my data and what people are saying?
419
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:26,750
The participants are saying and I'm quite open or am I more deductive and more theory based?
420
00:45:26,750 --> 00:45:34,420
So, for example, if I was doing a search, this is a nice paper that looks at social identity approach to food banks and social psychology.
421
00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:42,490
And so that would be very much like a theoretical theoretical basis where you you're very much looking for social identity that would help explain it.
422
00:45:42,490 --> 00:45:49,660
So I think they're having this different theoretical position, whether you're very much data driven or theory driven,
423
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:53,350
can influence as well the questions that you ask people in your interview.
424
00:45:53,350 --> 00:46:00,880
So in some cases, you know, defining that in advance can be important, but it kind of depends on the stage that you get the data,
425
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:06,330
if you see what I mean, and other people, you know, use different kind of methods.
426
00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:12,640
So if you're using like this, we're talking about thematic analysis, for example, discourse analysis.
427
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,480
If you're looking at the way things are constructed in language versus you've got
428
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,980
like a more straightforward view of what the language is and what people say.
429
00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:28,240
And that's a more like essentialist position. I guess in the past that I've had more essentialist realist one and more inductive approach.
430
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,660
So it's kind of you're just open to what the people are saying.
431
00:46:31,660 --> 00:46:37,520
And that's kind of a straightforward relationship between what they say and what you're writing.
432
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:43,750
But, yeah, I think just being aware that it's more complex than the being one type of thematic analysis of them,
433
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:50,140
all these different positions that people take that can lead to quite different analyses and quite different results,
434
00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:53,570
I think is is beneficial really when you're doing the work.
435
00:46:53,570 --> 00:47:01,600
So and we talk specifically about small q and big Q, which feeds into these kind of debates as well.
436
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,800
So yeah, I was about to ask that. So yeah, that was something that we discussed.
437
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:12,500
And some are reading this idea between the big Q qualitative research versus small qq ualitative research.
438
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:16,540
So I wondered, yeah. If you can tell us a little bit more about that.
439
00:47:16,540 --> 00:47:24,280
So that I think was Killoran Fine. And that comes into the idea that you're doing like a project from a so if you're doing a big key,
440
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:29,590
one is from like a qualitative background, a qualitative like philosophy.
441
00:47:29,590 --> 00:47:36,460
And your it's what broaden out talk about the organic reflexive one is like a big key one because you're just very
442
00:47:36,460 --> 00:47:42,190
open to all the participants are saying you don't think that you have to count the number of times things happen.
443
00:47:42,190 --> 00:47:51,370
It's very iterative. Your you know, you're recognising that the researcher as an analyst is very involved in interpreting the data,
444
00:47:51,370 --> 00:47:59,980
whereas like a small q one is much more in line with, like quantitative thinking, thinking that you'd have to maybe, you know,
445
00:47:59,980 --> 00:48:05,110
like a kind of more like a kind of qualitative content analysis where you were counting the number of times something
446
00:48:05,110 --> 00:48:11,440
happened that you had like an idea beforehand of what exactly you were going to count before you even saw the data.
447
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,290
You'd know what you were going to count or not, and then you'd count that thing.
448
00:48:14,290 --> 00:48:21,130
And that would be a much more small, cute sample because you're not really doing the research from a very qualitative philosophy in the sense that,
449
00:48:21,130 --> 00:48:26,440
you know, it's not so much about the participants lived experiences or being open to interpreting the findings.
450
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,180
It's much more like closed off,
451
00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:33,760
like a questionnaire would be something that is much it's like a much more quantitative way to do qualitative research.
452
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:43,420
So that's kind of part of the divide, I think within and it's not necessarily bad to do small q that could be exactly what you need in a study,
453
00:48:43,420 --> 00:48:52,240
but it is recognising that it is a very different approach from having much more open questions in your interviews and be much more
454
00:48:52,240 --> 00:49:00,850
open to following kind of lines of enquiry from the participant versus is this much more kind of closed off way of of doing it?
455
00:49:00,850 --> 00:49:05,890
And I guess this kind of shows in terms of thematic analysis, different approach,
456
00:49:05,890 --> 00:49:12,190
a thematic analysis kind of set along different ends of this continuum from big Q to small q research, is that right?
457
00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:14,200
Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's what they talk about.
458
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:22,820
Some of the papers, this kind of codebook one or the more kind of content analysis or their reflexive organic one, which is like the big Q So it does.
459
00:49:22,820 --> 00:49:29,710
And that kind of middle that big ish q in the middle where you are some maybe predefined ideas in mind,
460
00:49:29,710 --> 00:49:36,400
but also you're open to what the participants are saying as well, which is kind of where I think the keramine paper sits in the middle.
461
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:45,580
Yeah, I guess. Before we wrap up, do you have any other final thoughts or tips that you'd have for me, such as approaching qualitative research?
462
00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:48,220
Yeah, I guess just to be open to qualitative research,
463
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:52,880
if you haven't done it before as a it's just I think most people that even if they haven't done it before,
464
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:58,150
they're going to say to do find it intrinsically really interesting finding out more about their experiences,
465
00:49:58,150 --> 00:50:02,680
because it you know, compared to the questionnaire studies where you just really can't get much information
466
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,890
from people about how they finding out how they're thinking about things.
467
00:50:05,890 --> 00:50:11,110
It does provide this other perspective, which I think is really valuable in so many areas of research.
468
00:50:11,110 --> 00:50:18,430
Yeah, definitely. I agree. I mean, I found that there was such a it sounds like quite a bit like a cliche, but it's such a deep insight.
469
00:50:18,430 --> 00:50:23,950
You're getting into people's experiences. And it was really interesting and informative study.
470
00:50:23,950 --> 00:50:32,920
Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for your advice. And yeah, I was really helpful for me and I'm sure it'll be helpful for the as well.
471
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,270
Thank you. And that's it for this episode.
472
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:42,600
Don't forget to like rare and subscribe and join us next time when we'll be talking to somebody else
473
00:50:42,600 --> 00:51:06,930
About research and everything in between.
Wednesday Jul 21, 2021
All about burn out
Wednesday Jul 21, 2021
Wednesday Jul 21, 2021
Last week I hit a wall, and had to admit I was expereincing burn out. So many of us have reached that stage due to the pandemic so it felt important to do a podcast episode on it.
So, in this I talk to Sunday Blake all about burn out. Sunday was the President of the University of Exeter Student's Guild and has just joined the University's Strategic Delivery Unit - they know a thing or two about burn out. We aren't providing you with answers, as we both admit neither of us are very good at preventing burn out. But hopefully the discussion will resonate and provide some reassurance that your experience is valid and you are not alone.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,220 --> 00:00:15,850
Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,
2
00:00:15,850 --> 00:00:32,350
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,350 --> 00:00:39,790
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens for this episode, we're going to be talking about burnout.
4
00:00:39,790 --> 00:00:42,250
Why are we going to be talking about burnout?
5
00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:52,330
Because last week I hit a mental and physical wall and I know I'm not the only one that's ever experienced burnout.
6
00:00:52,330 --> 00:00:55,900
And I certainly know that I'm not the only one experiencing it right now.
7
00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,810
So it seemed a really good time to talk about it on the podcast.
8
00:00:58,810 --> 00:01:05,090
And I'm thrilled for this episode to be joined by a colleague and good friend Sunday Blake.
9
00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:10,610
So Sunday was until the end of last week, the president of the Student Guild.
10
00:01:10,610 --> 00:01:16,300
So the student union at the University of Exeter, and they were also the VP for postgraduates for a year before that.
11
00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:26,860
So they had a two term office. And Sunday has just joined the strategic delivery unit at the university and to work as a strategic advisor as well,
12
00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:30,440
and is an ideal person for me to talk to about burnout.
13
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,390
So I hope you enjoy this conversation. I hope it resonates with you.
14
00:01:34,390 --> 00:01:40,810
And I hope it perhaps reassures you that these experiences are normal and everything's going to be OK.
15
00:01:40,810 --> 00:01:52,450
So, yes, the idea was to chat about burnout because I hit a wall in the middle of last week after going back to campus for the first time.
16
00:01:52,450 --> 00:01:59,850
And my body and my mind just went, nope, yeah, this is this isn't good.
17
00:01:59,850 --> 00:02:12,920
I feel like your body goes before your mind goes. Like, I'm I've been in this body for three decades now, and I'm still like one more day do you know what I mean.
18
00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:22,250
And, you know, I don't think I'm the best guest actually to be on this podcast because I don't manage my own burnout, too.
19
00:02:22,250 --> 00:02:30,890
And that's the that's the thing. And like I was chatting to one of the PGRs about it because I said, oh,
20
00:02:30,890 --> 00:02:34,700
you know, on Friday, I took the day off as I've hit a wall and I'm going to take the day off.
21
00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:39,350
And they sent me a message on teams and I replied to it. And they were just like, what are you doing?
22
00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:48,710
Like you do? Yeah. I mean, I had got I got to a place where I was really quite good at kind of setting the boundaries because I,
23
00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:56,850
like, completely burnt out and had a breakdown back in twenty twelve and I'm sorry to hear that
24
00:02:56,850 --> 00:03:05,390
So it's okay. I mean it was, it was a big learning experience and it was the combination of so many different, so many different factors at the time.
25
00:03:05,390 --> 00:03:10,940
But like I learn a lot from that and I've been like on a on a journey ever since to try and kind
26
00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:15,020
of figure out how to put the right boundaries in place to make sure it doesn't happen again.
27
00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:19,910
So it's one of the reasons I stopped being an academic and I changed my job and moved to Devon.
28
00:03:19,910 --> 00:03:24,020
It was whole kind of right. What can I shift in my environment to make this work? And usually
29
00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:29,460
And I've been really good at managing that. But something about the pandemic has just.
30
00:03:29,460 --> 00:03:35,000
And not the early days of the pandemic, like since January, do you know
31
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,060
Well, I divide the pandemic up into like good, good times and bad times.
32
00:03:40,060 --> 00:03:49,800
When the pandemic when it first came in March, I was having a great time because I would go and sit my cats in between meetings.
33
00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,120
All my laundry would get done. I haven't done laundry. I don't do laundry for weeks now.
34
00:03:54,120 --> 00:04:02,810
And the thing is, I keep a I blame myself for and I get angry at myself because I think you managed this really well in March.
35
00:04:02,810 --> 00:04:07,740
What, in March? Twenty twenty I should say. Not March this year. March. Ugh it has been so long hasn't it.
36
00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:17,070
You managed this really well. Why, why can't I try to almost like push myself to get back to how it was at the beginning when I was like I'm at home.
37
00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:23,430
I learnt to sew. By the way, I think I remember asking you which sewing machine to buy all this stuff.
38
00:04:23,430 --> 00:04:33,300
And now I just I just exist. And it's I don't know how long I'm going to bring this on for because I started a new job this week when I turned up.
39
00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:37,500
You know, I love it it is areally good job, and it's going to be amazing.
40
00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:43,110
But like, I walked into the office and they were like, oh, most people only come in two days a week, which is great.
41
00:04:43,110 --> 00:04:52,140
But I find that I get almost like I get burned out from, like, just seeing the same four walls every day.
42
00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,720
That makes sense. Yeah.
43
00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,810
I've literally just had a conversation with someone about this and saying about because I was I was really pleased because we were,
44
00:05:00,810 --> 00:05:05,760
because they were talking about us going back to work one day a week from next week.
45
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:11,100
But I would potentially be in an office with twenty eight people and I was really not comfortable with that.
46
00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:17,220
Yeah. But, you know, really lucky, really supportive managers who I've said, no, I can't do that.
47
00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:22,110
And of course you don't have to do that. You do what you do, what makes you feel comfortable.
48
00:05:22,110 --> 00:05:30,720
Nobody's going to pressure you, which is brilliant. But we were talking about it and I was saying, you know, it's a real it's real tear.
49
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:38,010
I'm really torn because in some ways, particularly somebody that's chronically ill, I feel really safe in my house at the moment.
50
00:05:38,010 --> 00:05:44,940
I feel like I am in control of this. I can control who's here and how distanced we are and all that sort of stuff.
51
00:05:44,940 --> 00:05:50,940
And like you say, I can just go if I'm kind of having a moment, I'm going to lie with the cats, just kind of chill out.
52
00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:54,100
But at the same time, it's driving me insane.
53
00:05:54,100 --> 00:06:02,290
And I know that my mental health is worse because I'm not interacting with people and different people and yeah,
54
00:06:02,290 --> 00:06:05,680
walking around campus, yeah, I picked up a stone on.
55
00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:11,830
in lock down and I'm eating exactly the same. I'm not not change my diet, nothing like that.
56
00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:17,380
I know some people out on quite a lot of weight and they'll say because they eat when they're bored. I have been eating mainly the same stuff.
57
00:06:17,380 --> 00:06:25,060
In fact I under-eat, I forget to eat my meals because I back to back my meetings, which is bad, but I'm still put a stone on
58
00:06:25,060 --> 00:06:32,290
I cannot shift it because I'm not moving. I don't think that that's kind of like where I am at the moment with being burnt out.
59
00:06:32,290 --> 00:06:40,300
That's kind of where I've where I've got to kind of looking at, like you say, all of the things that this time, not even this time last year,
60
00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:46,810
I was finding it so much easier to manage and I was doing much more kind of in terms of
61
00:06:46,810 --> 00:06:52,600
hobbies and self care and spending lunchtimes outside when we had the nice weather.
62
00:06:52,600 --> 00:07:00,640
I'm not doing any of that now. It's just like you say, we've got so into this kind of back to back meetings because we can do that in a way
63
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,830
that we couldn't when we were doing things face to face and just kind of constant,
64
00:07:04,830 --> 00:07:10,240
constant work and constant worrying, constantly being on. And I think the like.
65
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:17,290
I heard quite a few people talk about the fact that so when we went into the pandemic in March last year,
66
00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:23,760
it was like, you know, our brains essentially went into fight or flight mode, you know, because that's I mean.
67
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:29,560
It's it's a it's a stress reaction. It's it keeps alert to my, you know, when there's a threat.
68
00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:35,740
But the problem is we've never really come out of that. And so our limbic system is just completely overrun.
69
00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:40,930
Yeah. And the reason that so many people are struggling with the mental health and feeling burnt out,
70
00:07:40,930 --> 00:07:47,440
like I talk to no one at the moment, that isn't like the end of their tether with it.
71
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:54,280
I am. And it is like this is and it was a neurologist actually who had talked about it on a podcast.
72
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,500
And they were like, this is actually affecting our brains and the way that our brains function.
73
00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:08,710
Yeah, yeah. My therapist told me about this saying that it's like to do with your brain plasticity, like all brains, are really, really flexible.
74
00:08:08,710 --> 00:08:16,510
I don't know the terms, but basically like this is why cognitive behavioural therapy works, because you literally carve out new pathways of your brain.
75
00:08:16,510 --> 00:08:24,760
It changes physically changes. I, I mean, I said it when I overshare too much, but the beginning of the pandemic, I started fainting a lot.
76
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,890
Yeah. or collapsing and a lot of people are really worried about it.
77
00:08:28,890 --> 00:08:35,620
I was worried about it and it kind of annoyed actually, because it would happen at really inconvenient moments, stood in the queue at Poundland and stuff.
78
00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:40,090
And yeah, you know, they did so many tests on me they were doing blood pressure.
79
00:08:40,090 --> 00:08:43,000
They would do it everything. Like what could it be? They would ask me if I'm eating
80
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,590
I mean to be fair, I never eat enough, but like, I wasn't eating not enough to faint.
81
00:08:47,590 --> 00:08:55,180
And like basically the doctors and the psychiatrist put it down to the fact that I
82
00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:00,850
was going into shops and having to think about who was and wasn't wearing a mask,
83
00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:04,630
because this is before masks were mandatory, you know, because we went through,
84
00:09:04,630 --> 00:09:08,770
like, we went through like half year without them being mandatory, which is crazy.
85
00:09:08,770 --> 00:09:11,920
I know that they came in so late when you think about it.
86
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,120
So I was having to think who was wearing a mask because I was looking at what people picking up.
87
00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,010
So I didn't pick it up because we didn't know if it was passed by surfaces or airborne.
88
00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:25,900
And I was having to calculate two metres, you know, all this stuff was going on.
89
00:09:25,900 --> 00:09:30,070
And basically it was just overloading my brain and my brain was going, you know,
90
00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:36,800
well, we could just turn off and I'd faint, which is crazy that that's the impact.
91
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:45,760
You feel like a lot of people are like that. When I'm walking around the shop, I don't know that I'm stressed, so I'm not walking around going.
92
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,750
I'm so stressed about the two metres and the masks. I'm not thinking that.
93
00:09:49,750 --> 00:10:00,610
But obviously I am somewhere. And I told you at the beginning of the phone call that obviously my right eye has burst or the blood vessels in it.
94
00:10:00,610 --> 00:10:09,350
And the doctors are like, yeah, that's your stress. But obviously I'm like, I don't wake up thinking, oh, I'm really stressed.
95
00:10:09,350 --> 00:10:16,630
And I think this is this is one of the really sinister things about stress is it doesn't have to be
96
00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:24,880
like a cognitive thought then it can actually just like be there like latent and dormant maybe.
97
00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:32,650
But yeah, I think this is one of the things that the pandemic has really highlighted.
98
00:10:32,650 --> 00:10:40,390
Yeah. Is that we we actually don't we actually don't really understand on a on a layman's basis how
99
00:10:40,390 --> 00:10:45,460
much stress can have a negative impact on your body without even mentioning your mental health.
100
00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:50,620
You know, and I've I've been the same in particular over the past week, you know, family and friends.
101
00:10:50,620 --> 00:10:56,210
And I've been saying to me, you know, like what? What is it that's really bothering you and I'm like, it's it's not a thing.
102
00:10:56,210 --> 00:11:02,150
It's not like I'm sat churning over the state of the country or, you know,
103
00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:08,060
it's not a thing that I'm sat there thinking about or ruminating on or particularly anxious about.
104
00:11:08,060 --> 00:11:16,310
Yeah, it's this kind of whole picture. And I've I've had the same so I've been over the course of the pandemic, I developed a restless leg syndrome.
105
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:20,270
So like it's a neurological thing that causes my legs to twitch and particularly
106
00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:24,320
when I'm trying to sleep so I can't sleep because my legs won't stop moving.
107
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:30,080
And the one I originally talked to the doctor about it back in January,
108
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,960
it's one of the it's one of those wonderful things that doesn't have kind of a known cause.
109
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:36,620
Yeah.
110
00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:47,330
And he's like, you would be surprised how many people are reporting very similar kinds of problems, not necessarily restless legs, but like you say,
111
00:11:47,330 --> 00:11:52,940
what you were saying with fainting and stuff that don't have an obvious cause are actually like he actually said to me at the time,
112
00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:58,760
like the likelihood is that this is a stress reaction. This is this is your body's way of reacting to the pandemic.
113
00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,290
And I said at the time, but I'm not like I'm not actively worrying about it.
114
00:12:03,290 --> 00:12:08,360
And it's like it doesn't matter. You don't need to be your your body is responding to it.
115
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:21,800
And so I'm terrible for that because I, I tell myself stuff that stresses me out is really bad issue where I think that I'm really hard.
116
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:29,420
So I think I'm tough. And I actually think this is not good because I set myself almost like emotional, personal bests.
117
00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:33,410
So if I go through something really stressful and I'm like, you know what?
118
00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:40,460
Instead of going, that was really stressful, I hope I never had to go through that again. I'm like, well, at least I know I can handle something that's stressful.
119
00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:44,990
So do you know what i mean like it's when we see it as a as a well I've done it, so I can do it again.
120
00:12:44,990 --> 00:12:47,840
And actually I think that, I don't think that's a great way of looking at it.
121
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:51,110
I think you should be, I think you should be looking at it going Oh I did that.
122
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:55,550
And it was horrible and I never want to do it again because I want to look after myself.
123
00:12:55,550 --> 00:13:04,760
But the I, I'm, I'm awful because I'm like, I'll tell myself I'm not stressed.
124
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:10,730
Like, I hate when stuff gets to me. I get annoyed at myself about it and I'm like, no, don't don't let it get to you.
125
00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:17,090
You're you're hard. And I think that because I because I don't give myself that time to be like, you know what?
126
00:13:17,090 --> 00:13:21,470
This is actually really impacted on me. Yeah. I think it just I think it hides away somewhere in my body.
127
00:13:21,470 --> 00:13:29,570
And then I end up. I know. Well, like I said, getting burned out or having a flare or something like that.
128
00:13:29,570 --> 00:13:33,740
Your blood vessels in your blood vessels in my eye burst
129
00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:36,410
Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly.
130
00:13:36,410 --> 00:13:45,380
And I actually I'm one of these people who I actually find relaxing stressful or meeting because I'm always got multitask when watching the TV.
131
00:13:45,380 --> 00:13:51,050
I'm also playing a game on my phone or I'm I'm the same or like I can't stop.
132
00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:58,850
And so, like you say, when you're like when I lay in the bath or read or have got to be on my phone or say, if I don't, I start to think.
133
00:13:58,850 --> 00:14:04,190
And if I start to think, I start to worry and find problems that aren't really problems.
134
00:14:04,190 --> 00:14:10,970
But it's like my brain. It's like, you know, like search, search out and what can I what can I get?
135
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:16,970
Really anxious about. And I think, you know, it's it's a symptom of. Anxiety, anxiety.
136
00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:23,870
Yeah, but also, I think kind of like trauma and partly trauma from the.
137
00:14:23,870 --> 00:14:30,470
Pandemic and the impact of that, but also part of a longer term kind of, you know,
138
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:35,650
back to childhood kind of trauma and all of that, where you're just kind of have this sense of.
139
00:14:35,650 --> 00:14:40,710
There's got to be something for me to worry about or something for me to be concerned about.
140
00:14:40,710 --> 00:14:47,910
Or panic about and so like that kind of switching off that apparently people can do.
141
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:54,880
I'm not I'm not 100 percent sure. I believe they can, but I just my brain doesn't do it, just doesn't do it.
142
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,850
It well, the last time I switched off was August twenty nineteen.
143
00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,910
It's now like twenty twenty one like I.
144
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:06,180
Yeah. So me and my partner,
145
00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:19,050
we went to Scotland and I remember I put the pictures up and basically we had no signal we stayed in a shepherds hut and the first couple of days was absolute agony.
146
00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:27,300
But actually I after a couple of days I ended up feeling like a sort of like like an inner peace, you know.
147
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:33,330
Yeah. I have to have this stem of a similar thing happened to me in twenty sixteen.
148
00:15:33,330 --> 00:15:37,100
I went to a silent retreat for four days, but.
149
00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:48,540
Yeah. And you know what, like I was awful. I thought it was going to be boring but you end up just I can't describe it you haven't
150
00:15:48,540 --> 00:15:53,430
Spoken to anyone you ever see people around you, you go for walks meditation.
151
00:15:53,430 --> 00:16:00,300
Is has libraries. You can read and stuff. Yeah. And it's in a sort of big manor house, almost like a national trust.
152
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:03,520
Beautiful location, like acres and acres of land.
153
00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:12,540
And I cannot describe it, but you end up just happy, like not talking to anyone, you're not laughing with anyone and then you just have this happiness.
154
00:16:12,540 --> 00:16:24,450
And it's really difficult because I think when I'm at work, I get a lot of my I get a lot of my ego boost from being important
155
00:16:24,450 --> 00:16:28,030
Right. It's really important. You know, this is why I did elected roles.
156
00:16:28,030 --> 00:16:33,030
This is why I have quite public facing role, because it tends to be it sounds bad
157
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:39,300
But like, I like to feel that I'm at the front of things, fixing things and doing stuff and serving my community,
158
00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:45,000
and I'm going to be serving my community, you know, and that's where I get my kicks from.
159
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:51,870
Yeah. And and I think I think that really, just to get really deep on the podcast,
160
00:16:51,870 --> 00:16:59,970
I think that I need to rewire my brain away from your valuable because you serve others.
161
00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:09,480
Yeah. To the way I am at the silent retreat, which is you literally just existing not talking to people, not impressing people,
162
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:14,880
just existing because they give you food and that you sleep in these amazing beds and stuff.
163
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:24,180
And I think I think what it does without without even speaking to you, the monks that live there is that they show you that you're all valuable.
164
00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:29,460
Yeah, literally. you're just existing because what you're doing is you're just breathing.
165
00:17:29,460 --> 00:17:34,620
And obviously when part of Scotland, we obviously were chatting to each other and stuff,
166
00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:39,360
but like, I would wake up, we'd get some food, we would go to like, you know,
167
00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:45,930
some ruins or we'd go to like, you know, like a fairy fountain or one of the one of the beautiful places in Scotland,
168
00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:49,000
Inverness, Loch Ness, that sort of thing. Yeah.
169
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:58,590
And I think that's definitely something to do if all well being that if we can if we can just get away from
170
00:17:58,590 --> 00:18:06,000
all the things that make us valuable to other people and we can just exist and know that we are worthy,
171
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,960
I think that I think the people like you and me might find it better to relax,
172
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:16,680
because the anxiety for me is I'm not doing I'm not I'm not earning my place in the world by having a bath.
173
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:22,800
I'm not doing anything like that. Yeah, it's why, like all of my hobbies and all of my, like, relaxation stuff,
174
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:29,610
it's like I like I build lego and I sew because it's all productive, I have to feel like I'm being productive.
175
00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:34,980
And there's a sense of like contribution and like you, I'm I'm really driven in what I do about making,
176
00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:38,040
you know, making a difference and that being really important to me.
177
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:45,270
And like you say, you know, there is that really important thing to me that actually feeling valued and valuable to other people.
178
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:52,830
But that is it's an incredibly exhausting way to sort of define yourself and define yourself worth.
179
00:18:52,830 --> 00:18:58,380
And I think that, like, so often with like research and being in academia,
180
00:18:58,380 --> 00:19:05,190
that kind of relationship to to something, whether it's to service or it's to your research or something like that,
181
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:16,650
is so often the kind of driving force behind your identity that, like you say, actually then pulling away from that and relaxing and valuing yourself differently.
182
00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:20,220
And it sounds like from the silent retreat and in Scotland,
183
00:19:20,220 --> 00:19:30,630
it's that kind of actually really having to go through something quite difficult to push through and have it be really difficult.
184
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:39,660
Yeah, it's difficult. Thank you so much to Sunday for taking the time out of their really busy schedule to talk to me about this,
185
00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:43,260
I think it's a really important topic right now.
186
00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:51,270
And so I know that we haven't really had our conversation, provided any answers, because, as we said, we're both really bad at this.
187
00:19:51,270 --> 00:19:59,250
But I think that that's the important message, is that. Dealing with these kind of things in these kind of stresses, particularly in the pandemic,
188
00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:08,400
it's really tough and we're all feeling this, so don't be too hard on yourself.
189
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,800
Take the breaks where you can and find the mechanisms that work for you.
190
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,020
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me.
191
00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:45,640
Next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
Wednesday Jul 07, 2021
Being a Mature PGR
Wednesday Jul 07, 2021
Wednesday Jul 07, 2021
In this episode of R, D and the Inbetweens, I talk to Dr. Ghee Bowman, Tracey Warren, Kensa Broadhurst, Laura Burnett and Catherine Queen about being a mature PGR - the benefits, the challenges, and what Universities need to do better.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800
Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,
2
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,210
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:36,170
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.
4
00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:39,140
That's right. You are hearing my dulcet tones again.
5
00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:47,930
I am back after a three episode break where the wonderful Dr. Edward Mills guest hosted a few episodes for me.
6
00:00:47,930 --> 00:00:53,450
So in this episode, I'm going to be carrying on a conversation that started actually on Twitter.
7
00:00:53,450 --> 00:01:02,660
So a number of our PGRs raised issues with some of the support that's available at the university for them as mature PGRs.
8
00:01:02,660 --> 00:01:12,050
And so we thought it'd be really valuable to have a conversation about what it means to be a mature PGR, what that even is, what the challenges are,
9
00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:24,710
what the benefits are, and also what advice they have for any mature students who are thinking of starting or about to start a research degree.
10
00:01:24,710 --> 00:01:29,110
So let's start with introductions. Ghee and Tracey happy to go first.
11
00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:37,920
Hello, my name is Ghee Bowman. I finished my Ph.D. in history in well I submitted in September 2019.
12
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,810
I am now. I'll be sixty in two months.
13
00:01:41,810 --> 00:01:54,380
I came back to do a PhD as a relatively mature student because I found a story that really fascinated and intrigued me.
14
00:01:54,380 --> 00:02:00,770
Hi, I'm Tracey Warren. I did an EdD or I'm doing it.
15
00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:06,860
I submitted about four weeks ago, so I got my viva in three weeks.
16
00:02:06,860 --> 00:02:18,470
I was working in Abu Dhabi and Dubai when I started this journey, so I did it as a distance learning international student.
17
00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:21,080
That's great. Now, Catherine and Kensa. Hi.
18
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:30,770
Yeah, I, I've been working in private practise for over thirty years as a town planner and a landscape architect,
19
00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:34,160
and there was a real world problem that troubled me.
20
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:41,720
And I had the bright idea of coming back to university and actually doing a PhD to try and answer the question that I had in my mind.
21
00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:50,330
So I actually applied for a Ph.D. that was advertised, fully funded and with a supervisor that I particularly wanted to work with.
22
00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:55,040
So I've come back into human geography. Hi, my name is Kensa
23
00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:06,050
I am a second year full time student at the Institute for Cornish Studies, which is in Exeter's other campus down in Penryn in Cornwall.
24
00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:15,470
I had been a teacher for about twenty years, having done the normal university master's degree straight after undergraduate.
25
00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:22,700
And then I was made redundant and very serendipitously that summer that I left school.
26
00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:34,100
My PhD, which came with funding for my fees, was advertised and I thought, why not I'd always wanted to do one
27
00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:40,220
So I applied, got this award at the studentship and started the PhD and last.
28
00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:41,990
But by no means least, Laura,
29
00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:52,160
I'm Laura Burnett, I'm doing a PhD in history and archaeology and I did the undergraduate degree in archaeology and then I worked for a few years,
30
00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:58,820
digging and so on then went back into the Master's. And then I worked professionally within archaeology for about fifteen years.
31
00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:06,740
And I always knew I wanted to come back and do a Ph.D. but it was around identifying a topic that I knew I wanted to do and I knew would work.
32
00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:12,710
And then timing wise, it's been about fitting around kind of family requirements and so on.
33
00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:17,390
And that's why I started now and partly why I've chosen to start in Exeter
34
00:04:17,390 --> 00:04:19,670
Thanks, everyone, for those fabulous introductions.
35
00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:28,190
I think what that really captures is the varying routes back into or into postgraduate research and postgraduate study.
36
00:04:28,190 --> 00:04:31,580
And I wondered if we could just take a little bit of a step back, actually,
37
00:04:31,580 --> 00:04:38,210
and think about what we mean by the term mature student or in this case, mature PGR.
38
00:04:38,210 --> 00:04:41,300
They'll be kind of an official university label,
39
00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:47,570
which generally encompasses somebody who has'nt gone straight through tertiary and further and higher education.
40
00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:54,920
So GCSE's A-levels, undergraduate degree, master's degree straight into some form of research degree,
41
00:04:54,920 --> 00:05:03,230
but that doesn't necessarily work as a label for everyone. And I wondered what you thought of it as a term and how you felt about it as a
42
00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:08,270
label and a classification of who you are as a as a researcher and as a student.
43
00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:13,970
I think it is reasonable to label it. I don't know whether we can define how quickly I think is quite typical.
44
00:05:13,970 --> 00:05:17,870
My experience in talking to students is one or two years gap,
45
00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:25,020
but I think all of us here are people who've had a much longer gap the between kind of finishing our undergraduate off.
46
00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:29,820
As you know, it's not just one or two years of working at that or saving up some money.
47
00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:34,860
We've all had quite substantial gaps, which probably did change both our life situation,
48
00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:40,890
but also the kind of experience and viewpoint we bring to doing a Ph.D.
49
00:05:40,890 --> 00:05:45,630
So I think it's worth thinking about a separate group, but I wouldn't say it's people who just haven't gone straight through.
50
00:05:45,630 --> 00:05:52,830
I'd say probably the people have had at least four to five years of professional experience before they come back.
51
00:05:52,830 --> 00:05:57,480
I you know, I kind of I self identify as young.
52
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,870
And this is an expression that someone as someone said the other week to me and I thought that's such a great thing to say.
53
00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:11,670
So I mean, I don't know what mature means, really. I mean, yes. I mean, you know, when I started my PhD, I was in my mid 50s,
54
00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:18,300
but in some ways I would kind of question what, you know, what what the differences are.
55
00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:26,690
I mean, it's partly I think it's I you know, on the whole, I think I'm blessed with the ability to get on with people of all ages.
56
00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:33,540
And so I kind of you know, I didn't I never struggled with people, you know,
57
00:06:33,540 --> 00:06:39,390
my fellow students who were in their early 20s or or their mid 20s, mid 20s seems to be the norm.
58
00:06:39,390 --> 00:06:44,850
But, you know, there was certainly some who were kind of like, you know, twenty two years old starting a Ph.D.,
59
00:06:44,850 --> 00:06:48,990
which, of course, I never imagined myself doing when I was anything like that age.
60
00:06:48,990 --> 00:06:55,770
But I don't know. I just kind of think that, yes, it's a long time since I was an undergraduate.
61
00:06:55,770 --> 00:07:05,640
And I am very grateful for doing I'm very glad that I didn't do a Ph.D. when I was 20 or 25 or 30 or,
62
00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,120
you know, actually it was the right time when I started in my mid 50s.
63
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:18,670
So I kind of reject the premise here, actually, that there is anything different about being a mature student.
64
00:07:18,670 --> 00:07:25,650
I think you do that. You do. When it's right for you. It doesn't work for everyone, you know, and it it's not always easy.
65
00:07:25,650 --> 00:07:29,970
But in my case, it was the right time. Yeah, I love that.
66
00:07:29,970 --> 00:07:36,360
And I think in all of your introductions, when you were talking about how you came to doing your research degree,
67
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:44,940
you were all talking or providing us with stories that were very much about the right, the right time and the right topic.
68
00:07:44,940 --> 00:07:49,980
So from my perspective, I think it's a combination of experience,
69
00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:59,430
opportunity and an eagerness to get into the world of work that I really didn't want to go through any more formal education.
70
00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:06,510
And I obviously did the undergraduate degree straight through to Masters, literally, because I didn't know what else I wanted to do.
71
00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:12,540
I didn't know what I wanted to do as a job. And I had quite a.
72
00:08:12,540 --> 00:08:19,170
A negative experience as a master's student for my first master's degree,
73
00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:26,790
and actually I think had I then gone straight through to a Ph.D., wouldn't have been I wouldn't have the maturity that I have.
74
00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:39,090
Now, some people might argue I don't. And now having had sort of 20 years away from mainly away from academia and having worked in the real world,
75
00:08:39,090 --> 00:08:44,770
I know I'm quite happy to sort of ask things and go, OK, but I'm not happy about that.
76
00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:49,080
And this is what I want to do. And please, can you help me with this?
77
00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:57,480
And I think that 22 year old, 23 year old Kensa would not have had that self-awareness or that confidence to ask for
78
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:04,350
those sorts of things and therefore have got the most out of what was available to me.
79
00:09:04,350 --> 00:09:09,930
And maybe that's maybe that's a reflection also of how academia's moved on.
80
00:09:09,930 --> 00:09:13,430
But I think that.
81
00:09:13,430 --> 00:09:21,590
As other people have said, it's the right time for me, I think it would have been a far more I'm not saying it's not stressful today.
82
00:09:21,590 --> 00:09:28,610
We all know that and we all know the amount of work and pressure that we often put ourselves under.
83
00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:34,520
But early twenties kensa would not have talking about myself in the third person.
84
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:41,060
would not have coped with that in the way that I find that I'm able to do so now.
85
00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:45,800
I just wanted to reinforce what Kensa said. I completely agree with that.
86
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,060
I mean, I'm not quite as mature as Ghee, but not far off.
87
00:09:50,060 --> 00:09:54,170
And I don't feel that I would have had the confidence to do what I'm doing now.
88
00:09:54,170 --> 00:09:59,210
I think impostor syndrome is a problem for everybody, regardless of age.
89
00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:07,820
And I think sometimes as an older student, you can find a problem, but you also have the resources to to work with it.
90
00:10:07,820 --> 00:10:13,640
You have the confidence to ask the questions. You're not so worried about how you appear to others.
91
00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:20,910
Yeah. And it's that that thing of being able to be confident enough to say, actually, I'm struggling with this.
92
00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:23,360
Can somebody help me? Can somebody advise?
93
00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:29,150
And I think mature students maybe find that a little bit easier to do because you don't really have anything to prove.
94
00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:33,710
It is lovely talking to the mature students. And actually that was something that really surprised me coming back.
95
00:10:33,710 --> 00:10:42,020
I thought I would be massively older than everyone else and I was massively heartened in my first few days to sit next to lots of the
96
00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:48,860
people who were older and to go into the Induction in history and realise I was not the oldest person there by about 15 years,
97
00:10:48,860 --> 00:10:50,870
which is what I clearly expected to be.
98
00:10:50,870 --> 00:10:59,150
So I think people perhaps right now myself, I wasn't aware of how many mature PhD and research students there are.
99
00:10:59,150 --> 00:11:07,250
So I think that's something I hope, you know, this will make people realise, if I think you're coming in, is that this is not an unusual situation.
100
00:11:07,250 --> 00:11:10,730
Yeah, and I think that's really key because there is even in the way that I frame
101
00:11:10,730 --> 00:11:16,670
this and challenge this so beautifully is is this assumption of difference.
102
00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:23,700
And, you know, like saying actually, you know, we're all human beings coming to this at the right time in our lives.
103
00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:29,240
So are we really that different? But also, you know, the community is diverse.
104
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,580
And so I wondered if you could maybe reflect on what it was like coming in as a mature
105
00:11:34,580 --> 00:11:40,910
student and what your experience was of of your assumption of of perhaps being different,
106
00:11:40,910 --> 00:11:44,880
but also the reaction and response from your peers?
107
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:53,990
I think I've been really lucky. The department I went into, everybody was absolutely lovely and it just wasn't even a consideration.
108
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:58,880
You know, I was at Freshers Week with everybody else, OK? I wasn't out partying, obviously.
109
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:03,230
But, you know, I was just with a bunch of other people who were all starting at the same time.
110
00:12:03,230 --> 00:12:05,480
They were all fantastic. We got on really well.
111
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:13,280
And I didn't really feel that age was even a consideration at any stage on that kind of carried on right the way through for me, really.
112
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,140
I found everybody very supportive. And it's just it's a community of people.
113
00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:22,070
I think age is just a state of mind. Yeah, age is a state of mind.
114
00:12:22,070 --> 00:12:24,920
I love that. And I think for me,
115
00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:33,560
what made the crucial difference was that I came back and did the Masters more or less well I had a year between the Masters and the Ph.D.
116
00:12:33,560 --> 00:12:42,980
So I was starting a Masters in my fifties after having been out of formal education for twenty years or so.
117
00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:52,550
And and so I struggled a bit when I started the Masters with kind of getting back into, oh, OK.
118
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:58,640
So here's a confession. When I was an undergraduate, I did my undergraduate degree in the early 1980s at Hull university.
119
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,380
And it was a degree in drama and I was the worst student you can imagine.
120
00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:07,100
I was you know, I was partying I was living it up.
121
00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:13,130
I was doing lots of productions, but I was not doing the work that was required to do to do the degree.
122
00:13:13,130 --> 00:13:23,270
And I very nearly failed. I came out with a 2:2 and I even though I was quite bright, I was just not doing putting the work in.
123
00:13:23,270 --> 00:13:30,830
And and that was, you know, that was so it was never nothing could be further from my mind when I was twenty.
124
00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:32,450
Than I would be doing a PhD.
125
00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:41,120
So I had to kind of between that stage of finishing my bachelor's degree and starting my master's degree 30 something years later,
126
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:48,170
I had to go through a long, long journey, which involved all kinds of stops along the way, where I realised,
127
00:13:48,170 --> 00:13:54,350
for example, that I was able to to write reasonably well, which is a skill I had anyway.
128
00:13:54,350 --> 00:14:00,840
But I didn't kind of I didn't have the confidence to realise that I was able to read and,
129
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:07,560
you know, read some kind of difficult theoretical text as well as the more straightforward.
130
00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:19,720
And that I could tell that I could cope, but even so, starting the Masters, as I did in September 2014, I think it was was an interesting shock.
131
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:28,540
And coming up against some of the some of the kind of the sort of the styles and the
132
00:14:28,540 --> 00:14:36,310
ways of being and the ways of talking and the and the how seminars were conducted,
133
00:14:36,310 --> 00:14:41,320
those kind of things are done quite some quite theoretical stuff which I struggled with.
134
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,690
And that was the difficult part, having then finished the Masters and done well in the Masters.
135
00:14:47,690 --> 00:14:55,260
Then when I started the PhD that that was an easy transition at the same university, it was the same department, some of the same people around me.
136
00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:59,950
So, yeah, it was the Masters beginning. That was a difficult thing.
137
00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:08,560
And I think I just going to make two points and one of them builds on Ghee's so if I start with that one that I'm thinking about,
138
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,900
kind of positioning yourself in department.
139
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:18,280
One thing I found a little strange is coming in as someone who's used to managing their work and managing their own time.
140
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,320
That's in some of the university setup. It's a little bit more hierarchical.
141
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:29,530
So my supervisor is massively long suffering because he he keeps going about things,
142
00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:35,260
saying things like, you know, has Laura checked your permission to do this ? He just very calmly says, yes, if I haven't,
143
00:15:35,260 --> 00:15:41,200
because I completely forgot that I need to ask my supervisor whether I could do this thing that they could relate to,
144
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:47,620
but not because I'm not in the habit of asking somebody else's permission to do in research.
145
00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:54,160
So, yes, they're very, very sorry about that. But I do think that can sometimes be perhaps difference.
146
00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:00,610
The students who go straight through when they need to move from being a student in a
147
00:16:00,610 --> 00:16:05,920
hierarchical relationship within the department to moving to be a collaborator and a colleague.
148
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,090
And obviously people, who come in as mature students and perhaps people in something like archaeology,
149
00:16:10,090 --> 00:16:15,190
which is very collegiate subject in general, are more used to that relationship.
150
00:16:15,190 --> 00:16:23,440
And I think you have to have the right supervisors and colleagues around you who are expecting that they're not expecting you to be a slightly shy,
151
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,700
retiring or unsure students. They realise that you are a professional experienced person.
152
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:37,660
Right. The other point I was going to make about freshers week and joining in, as someone who
153
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,800
I've got my family responsibilities and I have young children and also,
154
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,590
although I live reasonably close to Exeter about an hour's driveway,
155
00:16:44,590 --> 00:16:51,910
so I've not moved to Exeter to do the PhD so I can get involved in some department of life.
156
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:55,240
And that was one reason I chose Exeter was I am close enough to do that.
157
00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:02,560
But I didn't really take part in things like some of the more social side freshers week or some of the more social side the department.
158
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:07,600
And that does make a difference, I think. And yes.
159
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:16,750
And I think to sort of carry on with what Laura says, I live relatively near the Penryn campus, but I started at funny time of year.
160
00:17:16,750 --> 00:17:23,320
I actually started in November of twenty nineteen. So I sort of missed out on all the induction things.
161
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:31,330
So I very much don't feel part of the social side of Penryn campus at all.
162
00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:36,130
However, three months later, we then went into lockdown. We went online.
163
00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:43,150
And the great thing that I think actually has made my PhD and again, it feeds back to this, you know,
164
00:17:43,150 --> 00:17:50,560
not not feeling older or not not not sort of being perceived as being older than the other students.
165
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:58,210
Is the online community and online sort of support community has has been great and everyone is equal.
166
00:17:58,210 --> 00:18:05,950
Everyone is treated equally. So you really don't notice who's a mature student and who isn't.
167
00:18:05,950 --> 00:18:12,190
And the other thing that Laura was saying about it's the idea of asking permission.
168
00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:19,210
I never do. I'm very, very lucky with my supervisor because I all of my supervisions start with, well, I've done this.
169
00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:27,190
And he goes, okay, then, you know, and I think that possibly comes with the confidence, the maturity that we were talking about earlier.
170
00:18:27,190 --> 00:18:29,650
That's sort of. Okay, well, I, I,
171
00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:39,730
I'm used to having to run my entire life and having to organise this and spin lots and lots of plates because I had to do that throughout my career.
172
00:18:39,730 --> 00:18:46,270
So therefore, I don't ask people if I can do something, I just go ahead and do it.
173
00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:57,310
Yeah, so agreeing with Laura on lots of things. What's really clear from what you're saying is that there are a number of things that as a
174
00:18:57,310 --> 00:19:06,010
mature PGR and somebody who's been out in the world of work for a period of time and that,
175
00:19:06,010 --> 00:19:10,360
you know, there you bring things that are incredibly useful to the experience.
176
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:19,990
You know, you talked about that kind of confidence and the ability to ask questions and to kind of develop your independence as a researcher.
177
00:19:19,990 --> 00:19:23,290
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You know what it's about?
178
00:19:23,290 --> 00:19:24,950
I think it's about skill.
179
00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:33,850
That's what I think is, you know, kind of for me, the difference between between doing it now and doing it and not having done it.
180
00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:38,200
And so I think is like managing a project.
181
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:49,640
You know, it's like managing a really complicated, multi lateral, multi faceted project, which is basically me.
182
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:54,740
I'm on my own with some support from the supervisors.
183
00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,070
I like that idea of going into the supervision and saying, I've done this.
184
00:19:58,070 --> 00:20:03,950
And that's a really positive way to do it, is that, you know, you say this is where I'm at and this is what I've got to do.
185
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:06,470
And this is these are the successes I've had since we last met.
186
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:14,420
And these are the struggles and the questions that I'd like you to help me with, rather than waiting for the supervisor to start the conversation.
187
00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:15,470
That's really good.
188
00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:25,670
But, yeah, the idea of of, you know, being able to you know, through my other experience in my life, my varied experience, I know how to plan things.
189
00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:30,410
I know how to schedule things. I know how to fill time.
190
00:20:30,410 --> 00:20:38,120
If I'm waiting for something, I know how to manage the information.
191
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:44,140
I mean, a lot of it, particularly in history. So I did a history PhD. It really is about managing information.
192
00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:48,530
It's about managing my secondary reading and my primary you know the sources that
193
00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:52,910
I'm looking at in the archives and being able to handle all of that material.
194
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:55,820
All of that is stuff I think that one gets in life.
195
00:20:55,820 --> 00:21:03,320
You know, that if you've got some experience as a person out with a job or with a family or both, then, you know,
196
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:11,240
you gain that experience and you can then bring that to you in the way that somebody is in their 20s, maybe can't yet.
197
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,220
Since then, I think I bring a whole lot of skills to it.
198
00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:22,910
But actually, I find I work on academic stuff is probably quite different to how I work on things I've worked on professionally.
199
00:21:22,910 --> 00:21:29,300
It's very seldom you do such a big project professionally and I've done some research and evaluation and that's similar.
200
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:38,810
But it's rare that I do this sort of work professionally. So I'd say that actually there's kind of yes, there are skills I bring.
201
00:21:38,810 --> 00:21:43,550
And probably the thing that brings me to student is perhaps a lack of panic there.
202
00:21:43,550 --> 00:21:49,310
Are there more there are bigger disasters in my life. There are bigger problems in my life when things go a bit wrong with the PhD
203
00:21:49,310 --> 00:21:55,220
when things are a bit tricky with the PhD relatively, it matters a lot less than other things get bigger by life.
204
00:21:55,220 --> 00:22:00,470
So which is possibly not what supervisors want to hear. But I kind of like my PhD I kind of want it to go.
205
00:22:00,470 --> 00:22:03,890
Well, I want to do all of that, but it's not the be all and end of my life.
206
00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:12,560
And it can't be because, you know, I have other people in my life who are in the end more important, which is sad but true.
207
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:22,050
What I would say is I have found it slightly difficult because I have a way of working academically, which tends to be very intense.
208
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:26,660
I tend to I'm I'm definitely someone who used to say doesn't stop moving til the ground,
209
00:22:26,660 --> 00:22:32,150
starts shaking that I really I like to very much work towards something, but then have a very intense period.
210
00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:37,910
And that's not always compatible with having a family life and working part time as a Ph.D.
211
00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:42,050
So that's something that I've had to learn to do as a mature student,
212
00:22:42,050 --> 00:22:48,560
which is different from how I worked when I was in my 20s, did my undergraduate or did my master's degree.
213
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,900
And I could just completely focus on a period, on a piece of writing I was doing.
214
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:56,720
And I just can't do that because I have two kids in school.
215
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,120
So there is I've actually had to learn to work in different ways in which you're a student.
216
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:06,980
But yes, like I bring bring a whole lot of kind of life experience to it, which helps.
217
00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:12,170
Yeah, I really I really identify with what Laura is saying.
218
00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:17,450
But one thing for me was actually working at the same time as studying and I found
219
00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:23,660
I was wearing two hats and I actually found that really difficult to juggle.
220
00:23:23,660 --> 00:23:29,240
My professional life was writing reports and communicating in a certain way,
221
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:35,840
and the writing that I was doing was very different to the writing I was doing as part of my PhD.
222
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:44,780
And that became quite a struggle for me, actually, because you were having to adopt these two personas and write in two very different styles.
223
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:49,490
So you do need to be very organised. I think this is something that Ghee was saying.
224
00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:56,420
And, you know, don't underestimate the fact that you are trying to manage all these things and have a family life on top of that.
225
00:23:56,420 --> 00:24:03,050
So, you know, it does take a lot of organisation. So if you have project management skills, certainly that goes a long way towards it.
226
00:24:03,050 --> 00:24:07,850
But I do think that mature students have slightly different requirements.
227
00:24:07,850 --> 00:24:14,570
For me, it was the kind of the academic writing side of things and, you know, just needing a bit more support on that front.
228
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:20,510
So we've talked about the benefits and the strengths that you bring as a mature PGR
229
00:24:20,510 --> 00:24:25,340
What about the challenges? What about what are the barriers that you faced?
230
00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:37,310
And certainly one thing I found difficult is having had gone from when I was a full time younger student,
231
00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:49,000
is the way that academia's moved on and things like methodologies and sort of understanding of particular.
232
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:54,760
Themes and ways of working, especially within history or you just have no idea, I mean,
233
00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,310
I'm somebody who did my computers with just about coming in obviously they coming in when I was at school.
234
00:25:00,310 --> 00:25:07,180
But when I was an undergraduate, I did all my work handwritten. Everything was longhand when I did my masters.
235
00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:13,120
Yes, I did wordprocess my essays, but we didn't have a university email addresses or anything like that.
236
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,230
So, you know, we're talking about that sort of gap.
237
00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:24,130
So it's not necessarily technology I usde technology the whole way through my career, but understanding the sort of, OK,
238
00:25:24,130 --> 00:25:32,140
this is how we've now decided that you structure a piece of writing and you need to make sure that you included this stuff and the other.
239
00:25:32,140 --> 00:25:44,110
I think sometimes people assume, you know, what that is and somebody's coming straight through would do because they've done an undergraduate degree,
240
00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:48,370
especially in history quite recently, probably in other subjects
241
00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:53,650
So history is my experience and I don't know that.
242
00:25:53,650 --> 00:26:00,610
So that, in a way has been a barrier and you just have to go, OK, I have no idea what you're talking about.
243
00:26:00,610 --> 00:26:09,370
Please, can you help me you know? Occasionally you get the slightly taken aback look, but most people are happy to point you in the right direction.
244
00:26:09,370 --> 00:26:16,630
Yeah, I agree with most people have said and I think there are just a number of things I've noted here.
245
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:28,150
And the supervisors I've had have been really understanding of me as an older student because they understood that there be other life commitments,
246
00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:35,200
family work. So I don't I found them very supportive.
247
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:46,250
And despite everything that they have pushed things through quite gently in many ways, for me it was the challenges definitely of juggling work.
248
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:54,040
I was working full time, so every weekend was basically doing the research.
249
00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:01,570
So for me, it's been it was tough the first two years getting assignments done.
250
00:27:01,570 --> 00:27:10,720
And then when the research itself took over, what I found was that that was much more within my remit to deal with timescales.
251
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:17,190
So that was that was great. I could actually plan that out, thinking of my work commitments.
252
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:21,030
For me, I was as I said, I was an international student, so for me,
253
00:27:21,030 --> 00:27:29,190
I struggled with time because there was a time difference between the UK and where I was living.
254
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:37,980
So that wasn't just the case of being a mature student. I was juggling work and dealing with time differences when I wanted to contact my supervisors.
255
00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:47,700
But as I said, again, they were very understanding and some of them were even messaging me over weekends because I worked on the Sunday.
256
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:55,680
The other thing for me was writing and I couldn't agree more with Kensa and that for me my writing style was very different.
257
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:01,920
And that was something that the supervisors commented on. And I reflected on this thinking.
258
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,480
As a younger Tracey, I wouldn't have written like this.
259
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:17,700
I wouldn't have written so confidently about my approach and my perspective, because I that, she said, was a very individual engaging style.
260
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:23,690
And I don't think I would have done that or had the confidence to do that. The younger me.
261
00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:29,450
And also for the research itself, I actually don't think I could have done this research because this has come over
262
00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:35,180
time experience in my profession and within that particular job at that time.
263
00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:40,850
So the questions developed out of my work in practise in my life.
264
00:28:40,850 --> 00:28:51,440
Yes. So the barriers, I think there were the biggest one was juggling time for me and the distance with big time time difference.
265
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:57,710
But it was actually asking people for help and the right people that I struggled with.
266
00:28:57,710 --> 00:29:07,640
Sometimes I wouldn't know who to go to, whereas if I was on campus or perhaps come through Exeter as an undergraduate,
267
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,050
I might have known quicker where to go for advice on who to ask.
268
00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:16,420
But most of the time my supervisors have been very long suffering.
269
00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:22,390
Yeah, there are lots of things coming out there about being or not being a part of the academic community,
270
00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:26,890
and I wondered if we if we could spend some time thinking or talking about that,
271
00:29:26,890 --> 00:29:37,650
what kind of whether or not you felt welcomed into the academic community, what the what the barriers were again.
272
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:42,650
I think one thing I would caution against is more think about people who perhaps think listening to this thinking thing,
273
00:29:42,650 --> 00:29:46,890
one is what worth thinking about. What subject I wanted to do
274
00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:53,260
I did think carefully about which university to attend, and partly because I have the experience.
275
00:29:53,260 --> 00:30:03,330
Someone else I could very well who did a of doctoral partnership as a mature student with the university that was some distance away.
276
00:30:03,330 --> 00:30:09,270
And I think that creates difficulties in terms of being able to contact people,
277
00:30:09,270 --> 00:30:14,730
but it also creates difficulties and perhaps perhaps take it sometimes opportunity to think.
278
00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:22,920
And so one reason I wanted to come to Exeter was because they had a strength and a community of people working in the period I want to work in,
279
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,710
but also because they were close enough, for example,
280
00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:29,010
that I could get involved in teaching because that's something I really wanted to make sure I teach.
281
00:30:29,010 --> 00:30:36,630
My Ph.D. will spend some time practising teaching, and I was able to do that because I live close enough of course the things going online.
282
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,730
It's made it much easier to be part of
283
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:47,370
which has been wonderful and allowed me to really work meet more of the other students and staff working on similar periods to me,
284
00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:50,250
which perhaps I couldn't see, but I knew they would be there.
285
00:30:50,250 --> 00:30:57,690
I couldn't kind of be there at five o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon to actually go to seminars, meet them where I was being invited to do that.
286
00:30:57,690 --> 00:31:02,040
So previously I think that was a barrier with things that time, your seminars and so on.
287
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:10,140
But I do think, you know, when you're thinking about where to go and look for your supervisors, the right people, that happens.
288
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:17,310
If I think about that, do you think about that community and also what other things you want to do as well as do the research,
289
00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:22,230
whether being close enough to be involved in the department in that way is important as well?
290
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:29,430
Of course, funding is can be a big control as well, yeah, a slight kind of double edge thing here, which I think is, you know,
291
00:31:29,430 --> 00:31:40,300
my grey hair and the fact that I look like, you know, sometimes I get respect from people just for that.
292
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:48,630
Sometimes because I'm an older white male, some people will give me respect, which maybe I don't deserve.
293
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:59,280
And that is on the whole, it's a good thing for me anyway. However, I sometimes I think I've had experience of younger academics, you know,
294
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:10,710
even quite senior academics who are perhaps slightly uncomfortable with having somebody who is a lot older than them, who is, you know,
295
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:17,280
at that but at that junior level, because there is a very strong hierarchy within the university, you know,
296
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:27,450
undergraduate masters, the professor, etc., etc. There are these very clear strata within the university.
297
00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:35,800
And if there's somebody, you know, on a higher stratum than me who is a lot younger than me, then sometimes I think they struggle.
298
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,190
I don't think I struggle on the whole. I don't think I do.
299
00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:45,890
But I think I've experienced I get older or younger academics who who don't feel quite comfortable in my.
300
00:32:45,890 --> 00:32:49,280
And I don't know what one can do about that. And equally, you know,
301
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:58,400
lots of other academics and other members of staff and students who are perfectly comfortable with the case of 30 something years older
302
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,820
but some people do struggle with it. I totally agree.
303
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:05,630
I think possibly the thing that mature age,
304
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:14,900
mature age students bring to the PGR community and maybe the university community as a whole is that we have this experience,
305
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,480
this larger experience outside academia.
306
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:26,750
And we are totally used to having to deal with people at all stages of their life and all stages of their own various journeys,
307
00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:33,950
and therefore actually dealing with a supervisor who might be 20 years younger than us.
308
00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:35,060
That's not my personal experience.
309
00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:44,090
But, you know, or people who have just got their kids who are far younger than us or people that who are far older than us,
310
00:33:44,090 --> 00:33:49,850
doesn't faze us perhaps as much as it would do to somebody in their very early twenties.
311
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:55,040
And I wondered how that works for you, Tracey, because we're talking about kind of living relatively close to the campus,
312
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,790
whereas, you know, for quite a bit of your studies, you've been on the other side of the world.
313
00:33:59,790 --> 00:34:03,260
So what's that sense of community been like for you?
314
00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:15,920
Yeah, I think for me the challenge was actually having engagement with the student body and my fellow researchers as a community.
315
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,850
And at the time, although we have good technology that wasn't open to me until the pandemic,
316
00:34:22,850 --> 00:34:31,280
which you and I have discussed before, the actually the pandemic opened more opportunities for me.
317
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:51,440
And I feel that following my courses and access and seminars, conferences, going online, I feel I've got much more community with fellow researchers,
318
00:34:51,440 --> 00:35:00,320
whether that's younger researchers or not, because I certainly meet many more researches online.
319
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,230
In the last year than I did the previously, so I think it isn't a case of distance,
320
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:12,020
it's a case of opportunity and access and thinking of it much more broadly.
321
00:35:12,020 --> 00:35:17,060
Yeah, I'm really glad you used the word community, because that's made me think about that again.
322
00:35:17,060 --> 00:35:28,310
And I'm kind of thinking that I really have felt I did I didn't feel very much that I was part of the the big university community,
323
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:35,060
which is I mean, you know, it's an enormous community and it does it's not I mean, when I was an undergraduate just to go back there again,
324
00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:39,680
you know, there were a hundred students in one building studying drama at university.
325
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,780
And we were completely a family. And in Exeter,
326
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:51,410
there are over a thousand students doing history as undergraduates and they are
327
00:35:51,410 --> 00:35:55,880
all scattered across the place and there's no sense of them being one community.
328
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:03,740
So and I think Exeter is a big university. And I think it's it's it's it's hard to pin down where the community is.
329
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:12,020
But I always thought I did feel, you know, I was part of you know, I was I spent a lot of time in the library.
330
00:36:12,020 --> 00:36:23,240
I was kind of I would often eat on campus in the day time in and out of the guild, you know, making I mean, I was on university challenge team,
331
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:32,390
we didnt get on the TV, but even, you know, the kind of lots of things that made me feel as if I was as if I was part of this big group of people.
332
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:37,700
And I think that that for me really made it work.
333
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,600
And I think I had a again, I had a confidence about that.
334
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,580
I mean, I think that's a word that people have used.
335
00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:52,550
I had a confidence about joining things and going up to people and saying, hello, what can I join in, you know, that kind of stuff.
336
00:36:52,550 --> 00:37:02,180
But that I didn't have when I was if I just want to think about how some of this difference what you want to get out of the PhD
337
00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:08,510
you know, are you doing it professionally to move yourself forward professionally, and you know where that's going to go?
338
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:18,170
Are you doing it to actually change careers? Are you doing as an experience to develop yourself intellectually, to develop new insights, new research,
339
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:24,260
in which case that kind of social aspect of being part of a university community can be really important
340
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:29,630
because you want to open your mind to new things and to meet new people and to be part of that or like,
341
00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:35,480
say, if you if it's a much more this is a professional step within my own career, developing my own skills.
342
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:42,260
You may not actually feel that need because you are already have that community within your professional practise.
343
00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:46,340
So I'm probably somebody whose perhaps move on that a bit
344
00:37:46,340 --> 00:37:55,520
I think when I first came back to do my PhD, very much so this is something that was part of that myself, actually within my career.
345
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:59,690
But I wasn't very clear about where I wanted what I want after
346
00:37:59,690 --> 00:38:04,380
And if I actually I'm still not and I still get lots of different ideas. But actually, let's go back, in fact.
347
00:38:04,380 --> 00:38:11,500
So I assumed I would never want to come back in academia after my PhD because I thought it was
348
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:19,450
Possibly sometimesa hit horribly competitive for very small rewards and not perhaps that collegiate in some ways,
349
00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:27,310
and I didn't really feel that was the kind of society I'm working. But actually, I really loved to kind of, you know, teaching and studying again.
350
00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:31,540
And, you know, maybe there are opportunities for me that grateful to be part time.
351
00:38:31,540 --> 00:38:36,250
I've got years to worry about what I'm going to do afterwards. I and try lots of things in the meantime.
352
00:38:36,250 --> 00:38:41,920
That's also what Iwanted to do was to give myself that space to have a PhD part time
353
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:48,010
So I knew I had some income coming in and some work, but also to give myself space to explore new things.
354
00:38:48,010 --> 00:38:54,130
So I suppose why you're coming to do the PhD might impact what other things you to look for and what you really need.
355
00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:57,940
I was just listening to to what Laura said and smiling.
356
00:38:57,940 --> 00:39:05,050
I came I mentioned earlier I came into to do my PhD because it was to solve a problem I had in my career.
357
00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:08,290
And I was doing very well in my career. It was going great.
358
00:39:08,290 --> 00:39:14,260
There was no question of me going into academia, you know, and I was going to go back into my job and I'd be better informed.
359
00:39:14,260 --> 00:39:22,270
Well, that was just rubbish, because doing a PhD changes you as a person in lots of really good ways.
360
00:39:22,270 --> 00:39:29,830
And doing it part time, I think has helped me to kind of compare my working life with my academic life.
361
00:39:29,830 --> 00:39:34,630
And when you're in your 50s, people don't have any great expectations of you to go into academia.
362
00:39:34,630 --> 00:39:40,720
They think you're going to stick with your life in practise. And actually, I've just completely fallen in love with academia.
363
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:48,700
I'm due to submit my PhD in September, and I've already been successful in securing a permanent lectureship,
364
00:39:48,700 --> 00:39:52,810
which I started in the New Year in Liverpool, and I just couldn't be happier.
365
00:39:52,810 --> 00:40:00,910
I'm a completely different person. I now have a totally different life and I just feel like I've come home, you know,
366
00:40:00,910 --> 00:40:06,430
and I like being in consultancy, but I'm just absolutely delighted with the way things have worked out.
367
00:40:06,430 --> 00:40:14,350
Anddoing a PhD has given me skills and experience and confidence and all the things that I didn't have before.
368
00:40:14,350 --> 00:40:19,990
And that's why I would just say to people, just go for it, because you really don't know where it's going to take you.
369
00:40:19,990 --> 00:40:30,400
That's just completely fantastic. Catherine, congratulations. And talking about kind of, you know, going onto an academic career.
370
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:38,260
It's a really nice Segway actually, into what started this conversation, which was about career support for mature students, you know,
371
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:40,900
who aren't kind of haven't gone through that, I don't know,
372
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:47,080
conveyor belt of education without without getting off and doing professional work and so on.
373
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:57,280
Don't know if we could speak a bit about that, about kind of what support you actually need as mature PGRs as you already have had careers
374
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,830
who have sought a PhD as a professional development opportunity or as a career change?
375
00:41:02,830 --> 00:41:13,390
You know what? What is it that you need that's different? I can I can start this off because I'm slightly to blame for the entirety of this podcast.
376
00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:21,370
I have having been a teacher in secondary schools, I have absolutely no desire to go back to that.
377
00:41:21,370 --> 00:41:28,690
Not dissing teaching as a career at all. I have the utmost respect for my former colleagues, especially the work they've done in the last year.
378
00:41:28,690 --> 00:41:32,920
But it's not something I want to return to. So I'm that's OK.
379
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,360
I'm in my second year of my Ph.D. stage. I need to decide what I'm going to do afterwards.
380
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,820
I need to start looking at options.
381
00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:51,610
So I'm going to as many I spent the sort of spring term this year going to as many careers seminars and talks and so on as possible and got very
382
00:41:51,610 --> 00:42:01,510
frustrated very early on because there was just this assumption that people looking for work were aged 22 and had an undergraduate degree.
383
00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:10,810
And I actually went to one to where the person said he was, you know, the Exeter graduate who they'd got in to do the talk,
384
00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:15,850
said, oh, yes, and you can make senior management by the time you're 25.
385
00:42:15,850 --> 00:42:20,080
And I, you know, had had we actually physically been in the same room,
386
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:27,340
I think I'd probably having said I'm mature and have grown up and what I probably would have thrown something at him.
387
00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:34,720
There is just this assumption that people looking for work or have just finished university and have no
388
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:41,800
experience and are looking for a career and they just want money and they want to live in central London.
389
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:50,860
And we all know everyone, undergraduates, schoolteachers, children and teenagers in school, everybody knows that is not true.
390
00:42:50,860 --> 00:42:56,230
So why is this still this fantasy still being peddled in career seminars?
391
00:42:56,230 --> 00:43:03,100
And I didn't challenge him in that one. But then I went to another seminar probably a few days later.
392
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:09,520
And actually I did turn around to go hi person in my mid forties here who's had one career.
393
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:18,000
Doesn't know what they want to do with their life after the PhD, please don't assume this, and actually got a really positive response from that.
394
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:24,550
But but yes, there is this. You know, I think.
395
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:27,670
Maybe that's that's something that we need to do as mature students,
396
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:31,990
but there are a lot of mature students as we've discovered and we need to challenge these
397
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:38,180
stereotypes and say and also let alone with the way that society has changed,
398
00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:42,460
spot the historian here, the way society has changed over the last 50 years,
399
00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:48,580
people do not go into jobs at the age of 16 and stick with that one company until they're 65.
400
00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:53,740
Many, many people have either changed jobs or change careers partway through their lives.
401
00:43:53,740 --> 00:44:06,340
And I think that's hopefully careers services and whoever will start to realise this and start to sort of tailoring things to,
402
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:12,880
you know, maybe we need to go and ask for it rather than expecting it to be handed this information to be handed to us on a plate.
403
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:19,940
But I think that people need to start catering for a wider range of needs.
404
00:44:19,940 --> 00:44:26,680
That sounds like actually the university's career department need to do some targeted sessions or or a theme stream,
405
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:31,600
which is about mature students, not necessarily only PGRs
406
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:37,870
but, you know, students of in any level or department or whatever who are, you know,
407
00:44:37,870 --> 00:44:43,690
who are kind of coming in again after after experience family and work.
408
00:44:43,690 --> 00:44:50,920
And you know how that is different and what they you know how it is, because the fact is, we've all got a hell of a lot to offer.
409
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,910
You know what? It's just a question of finding the right.
410
00:44:54,910 --> 00:45:00,160
The people who are looking for that stuff that we've got to offer, you know, and we are.
411
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,400
Yeah, we're great. I agree obviously with Ghee we are wonderful.
412
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:12,400
And people would be lucky to us in their career, I think also because if we're dissing the career service providers, who arent here to reply
413
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:20,170
they could also be missing because I know some of the conversation in amongst issues more broadly is about things like this
414
00:45:20,170 --> 00:45:28,690
terrible phrase of atl-ac the kind of people who are doing PhDs who aren't then planning to go on to an academic career and obviously from people,
415
00:45:28,690 --> 00:45:36,250
the students or from people who've done some of those other careers and therefore perhaps have some useful insights into that conversation.
416
00:45:36,250 --> 00:45:49,150
Or, you know, they could be the university could be exploiting some of our links into kind of industry and into other other areas of the subject.
417
00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:57,520
And it might perhaps be to call back something we spoke about earlier in that subject where sometimes some of the other
418
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:04,450
people who work in department have gone through perhaps more traditional route have stayed in academia their entire career.
419
00:46:04,450 --> 00:46:14,560
And actually therefore, that kind of wider understanding, that of those uproots is sometimes not perhaps there to the same extent.
420
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:20,170
And that's something that the that could can usefully not just mature students,
421
00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:27,790
but by setting it is more of a conversation and the way we can the community with an extra can contribute and work together.
422
00:46:27,790 --> 00:46:31,930
This could be something that other students can benefit from as well.
423
00:46:31,930 --> 00:46:39,580
And the people working in these career service jobs might benefit from some of our expense.
424
00:46:39,580 --> 00:46:41,570
Just very quickly, Laura you;re just spot on.
425
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:47,320
I and I think the amount of times I've been in an academic situation and I've seen academics with loads of experience who don't know,
426
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:53,650
for example, how to run a meeting, who don't know how to handle a seminar, you know, who only have one way of doing things.
427
00:46:53,650 --> 00:46:58,750
And that's what they've been doing for 20, 30 years within an academic context.
428
00:46:58,750 --> 00:47:03,700
One thing I'd say is perhaps sometimes the nature of this being something that the university
429
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:09,700
needs to do for students to recognise that if the university is a community,
430
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:15,250
a kind of academic collegiate community, then this is something we do together in collaboration.
431
00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:21,130
This isn't something the university needs to do for students as a kind of someone lower down the hierarchy.
432
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:29,560
Perhaps this is this is a this is a we work together at which, you know, I know some people do work collaboratively and that's true.
433
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,730
But I think that can we talk a little bit earlier on about sometimes that that
434
00:47:33,730 --> 00:47:37,690
hierarchical relationship that can creep in and that that that is a problem,
435
00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:41,950
I think. And that perhaps is very here. You're right.
436
00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:47,470
And I think that working in collaboration and that reciprocity is really important because one of the
437
00:47:47,470 --> 00:47:55,450
big philosophies of the way that I work is no one knows better what PGRs need than PGRs themselves.
438
00:47:55,450 --> 00:48:03,640
And so I think it's really important for us to working in collaboration, to work together on this and to wrap up.
439
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,740
I want to think or imagine that, you know,
440
00:48:05,740 --> 00:48:14,320
there's somebody listening to this podcast who is considering doing a research degree as a mature student or is just about to start.
441
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:23,890
What advice would you give them? What do you wish that you knew at the point at which you started or were considering applying?
442
00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:28,870
It's not so much of what I wish I'd known better, what I have come to realise,
443
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:35,790
and that is don't be put off by thinking, oh God, I'm a mature student, what on earth my doing with my life?
444
00:48:35,790 --> 00:48:41,860
I suddenly take three or four years out to do a Ph.D. Just go ahead and do it.
445
00:48:41,860 --> 00:48:45,550
You can have whatever whatever life journey you've been on.
446
00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:52,390
You have acquired the skills and the knowledge and the ability to do a Ph.D. and you know,
447
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:57,640
whether that juggling lots and lots of different things and commitments plus full time study,
448
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:02,920
whether that's juggling a full time job and part time study, you have learnt those things.
449
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:07,930
You have learnt those skills. And what you need to do is just think I can do this.
450
00:49:07,930 --> 00:49:12,670
The support is there and I will learn so much about myself.
451
00:49:12,670 --> 00:49:17,740
And maybe it's not just about learning about yourself. I will gain something.
452
00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:22,840
And actually I do have the right to do this for me.
453
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:28,120
So I would say then don't be put off by thinking it's just something that people who
454
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:34,480
are very brainy in their mid twenties do not describe myself as very brainy either.
455
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:43,270
But yeah, just go for it. Yeah, I mirror some of what Kensa's said, so I just jotting down a couple of things.
456
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:49,420
And I think the main thing that people said to me about it was a marathon, not a sprint.
457
00:49:49,420 --> 00:50:01,690
I go at my workplace or life at like a hundred miles an hour or a hundred and forty kilometres an hour along the Dubai Abu Dhabi highway.
458
00:50:01,690 --> 00:50:08,230
And I was still expecting to do that with my doing the doctorate.
459
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:15,730
And it was only on reflection recently that I recognised that if it was a marathon and that
460
00:50:15,730 --> 00:50:24,940
a different process and different pace and then also mirroring what Kensa had said,
461
00:50:24,940 --> 00:50:36,250
the word I put down was skills, is that I have acquired so many amazing skills during this journey,
462
00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:44,290
and that's through my workplace and life as well as through this research opportunity.
463
00:50:44,290 --> 00:50:50,680
So I think if anybody was debating whether to do it, I'd say absolutely,
464
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:56,950
because you learn so much on the way and incorporate a lot of your life skills.
465
00:50:56,950 --> 00:51:02,980
I was just going to completely echo what the others have said I think that it's much better that I can so i'll just agree with them on that.
466
00:51:02,980 --> 00:51:10,600
Ang one point I was going to raise which hasn't kind of come up some where in the podcast was about doing it in combination with having a young family,
467
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,070
and that I have two boys who are now just eight and five.
468
00:51:15,070 --> 00:51:23,770
And so I started when they're three and five. And obviously that of many mature students have perhaps caring responsibilities as do younger students,
469
00:51:23,770 --> 00:51:29,700
but actually a part-time PhD combines really well with having a family because there is flexibility about where you fit the work.
470
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:38,110
And so that can really that can work quite well in that I work much more intense because of the times I can take the time off to the holidays.
471
00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:46,120
So if you're thinking will having a young family prevent me from doing a PhDit can actually be a type of work that fits pretty well with it.
472
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:50,110
But I think what's been inspiring this podcast has been seeing how yes,
473
00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:54,280
go in with a clear idea about why you want to be doing the PhD be clear about why you want to do that topic,
474
00:51:54,280 --> 00:52:01,570
about what you really value about that topic and you know about why you've chosen to do it, where you've chosen to do it.
475
00:52:01,570 --> 00:52:07,000
But I think what to expect expects that that change, that growth you have to PhD.
476
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:13,690
And so don't be surprised if it goes in a different direction as you work through and that you change as you're doing it.
477
00:52:13,690 --> 00:52:18,700
But, yeah, I would agree with people. I think that's it. But I have been glad to do it now.
478
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:25,330
You know, I wasn't in the place where my kids were very small babies. It wouldn't it would be more much more difficult.
479
00:52:25,330 --> 00:52:29,350
And I don't know whether I'd have come to my twenties.
480
00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:37,570
I would probably have done a different PhD. So, you know, it it fits people at different stages.
481
00:52:37,570 --> 00:52:42,760
Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to agree with everybody else. But one thing I would say is be kind to yourself.
482
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:49,000
My supervisor often says to me to stop being so hard on myself, he reckons I'm my own worst enemy.
483
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,320
And I think sometimes we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves as mature students.
484
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:59,920
So just something to be aware of. I also think we shouldn't stereotype ourselves, OK, we're mature students.
485
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:04,870
But, you know, I think we've seen today that actually it doesn't make a lot of difference what age you are.
486
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:08,740
We all deserve to be there and we've all earned the right to be there.
487
00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:14,500
And just to reiterate what other people said, just be prepared to come out as a different person at the end of it.
488
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:22,570
Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's one of the things I think I want to say is, is that it's it's not for everyone.
489
00:53:22,570 --> 00:53:28,650
I think that some. That should be said to anyone who's thinking about going to university at any level,
490
00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:38,340
if they're a 17 year old thinking about an undergraduate degree or if they're thinking about a Ph.D., you know, it's a PhD is hard work.
491
00:53:38,340 --> 00:53:40,470
It is designed to be hard work.
492
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:48,990
It is designed to be something that takes literally thousands of hours and takes you very deep into studying something quite particular.
493
00:53:48,990 --> 00:53:57,970
And that is you may feel that you've got some of the capacity for that, but maybe you haven't as well.
494
00:53:57,970 --> 00:54:00,510
So I kind of weigh it up quite carefully.
495
00:54:00,510 --> 00:54:08,040
I think in your mind, you know, do a list of all the pros and the cons and talk to as many people as you can before you start.
496
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:15,850
I mean, I thankfully, my experience was pretty good. So, you know, I'm lucky, but it's not really for everyone.
497
00:54:15,850 --> 00:54:25,620
So just kind of take that slowly, I think. And I think one thing about being, you know, what we talked about before is having confidence.
498
00:54:25,620 --> 00:54:34,230
And I think one of the things that is I've really learnt is the ability to say, I don't know, I don't understand.
499
00:54:34,230 --> 00:54:38,970
I'm you know, please explain this to me. I'm not sure what that what that means.
500
00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:41,190
Young people often struggle with that.
501
00:54:41,190 --> 00:54:48,150
I think, you know, I think I think I've got to stage in my life when I say what I am, what I am and what I am needs no excuses.
502
00:54:48,150 --> 00:54:53,670
Take me as You see me and I will admit when I don't. And that really that's very, very helpful in life.
503
00:54:53,670 --> 00:55:03,840
I found and the final thing I think I would say is that is just picking up on the thing about family life and what Laura was saying.
504
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:09,360
I mean, my my children were were in their 20s or in their late teens when I started.
505
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:18,150
So that made it a lot easier. But, um, I had a fairly strict policy from the beginning, which I was able to do,
506
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:23,670
partly my wonderful wife earning some money into my getting a funding for the PhD
507
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:28,440
I had a fairly strict policy of of compartmentalising work and leisure.
508
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:35,220
So I worked. I did my PhD work from nine to six Monday to Friday.
509
00:55:35,220 --> 00:55:38,850
I didn't work evenings and I didn't work weekends.
510
00:55:38,850 --> 00:55:44,940
I broke that occasionally, particularly towards the end, and particularly when I was overseas doing my research.
511
00:55:44,940 --> 00:55:52,650
But on the whole, I tried to stick to that because your mental health, your wellbeing is absolutely critical.
512
00:55:52,650 --> 00:56:01,650
You won't get through it if you break down in inverted commas and you need to balance that life in order to get through it.
513
00:56:01,650 --> 00:56:08,910
So, yeah, kind of look after yourself, really. It's that confidence has to be kind to yourself.
514
00:56:08,910 --> 00:56:15,720
Thank you so much, Ghee, Kensa, Tracey, Catherine and Laura for having this conversation with me.
515
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:20,040
And thank you to you. If you've stuck with us for what is now just under an hour.
516
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:31,440
I wanted to keep a lot of this content in because I think it's just so important to share and to recognise the experiences of different researchers.
517
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:39,780
So if you're listening to this and you think but that doesn't tie with my experience as a student or what about, you know, what about being part time?
518
00:56:39,780 --> 00:56:46,980
What about being just whatever it is? If you feel like you've got a story to tell, please get in touch.
519
00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:52,710
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rate and subscribe and join me next time.
520
00:56:52,710 --> 00:57:18,832
We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
Wednesday Jun 23, 2021
Being an internal (viva) examiner with Professor Michelle Bolduc
Wednesday Jun 23, 2021
Wednesday Jun 23, 2021
In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Professor Michelle Bolduc, Professor in Translation Studies and Edward's internal examiner, about preparing for your viva.
In the podcast, Michelle mentions the TQA manual where Univeristy of Exeter PGRs can find the criteria for assessment for research degrees. These are taken directly from the Quality Assurance Agency's crtieria for assessment of research degrees. Please do check how these are applied at your instition.
This is the last in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:13,550
Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens.
2
00:00:13,550 --> 00:00:32,300
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,300 --> 00:00:40,940
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens. This is our final episode in the series on The viva.
4
00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:49,540
And in this final episode, Dr. Edward Mills is going to be talking to his own internal examiner, Dr. Michelle Bolduc about.
5
00:00:49,540 --> 00:00:55,720
The similar things that we've talked about in the previous two episodes, viva Prep, how examiners approach the thesis,
6
00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:03,490
but also with a little bit of a twist and a perspective from his own viva experience.
7
00:01:03,490 --> 00:01:04,850
So over to you, Edward.
8
00:01:04,850 --> 00:01:14,680
I was very fortunate to speak with Michelle about all things relating to the PhD Viva, including My Own PhD viva, which she was the internal examiner.
9
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:20,470
First up, I was wondering if you could just introduce yourself and what your kind of experience is with vivas,
10
00:01:20,470 --> 00:01:25,750
whether as a student or as somebody who's administered them.
11
00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:33,100
So I'm Michelle Bolduc, the director and professor of translation studies, obviously at Exeter.
12
00:01:33,100 --> 00:01:45,160
And in terms of experience and Vivas, I would say that I've had both an American and a UK experience,
13
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,740
so I'll be really limiting myself and my remarks to the latter.
14
00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:59,320
I think it's probably more pertinent. So obviously you have done yourfair share of vivas in your time, including mine.
15
00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:09,010
But I was wondering if if you could start just by explaining what you as an examiner do when you when you get a thesis ahead of the viva
16
00:02:09,010 --> 00:02:13,900
presumably the first thing you do is read it. But I mean, how do you how do you go about doing this?
17
00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:14,500
Well, you know,
18
00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:29,200
it's a it's a really interesting question given given now that all of the Covid regulations require the that we don't have paper copies,
19
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,980
I really need a paper copy in order to be able to read.
20
00:02:32,980 --> 00:02:42,610
So I don't know whether you know this but, but I requested paper copies of your dissertation.
21
00:02:42,610 --> 00:02:47,620
And I did so because the way that I'm going to be just very practical about it,
22
00:02:47,620 --> 00:02:57,190
the way that I read is both by taking notes with a pen really old fashioned on the thesis itself,
23
00:02:57,190 --> 00:03:03,100
on the pages and also on a notepad that I keep next to me.
24
00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:08,380
So I go through, I read, I take notes on the thesis.
25
00:03:08,380 --> 00:03:12,880
I read it a second time. I take notes on the notepad.
26
00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:24,430
I read it a third time. I take further notes on my notepad. And and then usually my fourth reading is where I start to try to pull things
27
00:03:24,430 --> 00:03:32,320
onto some kind of a word document so I can organise the comments thematically,
28
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:43,090
whether it's based on argument or language use or some of the kinds of ideas
29
00:03:43,090 --> 00:03:49,670
that are linked across the the thesis and the questions that I might have.
30
00:03:49,670 --> 00:03:58,840
So could I ask what when you're reading a thesis for whether it's the first time or the fourth time, what do you like to see?
31
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,270
And is there anything that sort of really frustrates you?
32
00:04:01,270 --> 00:04:06,910
Is there anything you look at and are good or anything you look at and go, oh, hang on a minute, this is going to irritate me me?
33
00:04:06,910 --> 00:04:11,860
Well, I would say that I really like signposting.
34
00:04:11,860 --> 00:04:21,850
I really like when I see what the argument is, I see clearly how the argument is progressing,
35
00:04:21,850 --> 00:04:28,570
the way in which the student has chosen to or the candidate has chosen to mark out.
36
00:04:28,570 --> 00:04:33,490
This is what I'm doing and this is why I'm doing it.
37
00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:41,590
I pay really close attention actually to those features of argument that I don't think we teach quite enough, frankly.
38
00:04:41,590 --> 00:04:48,880
But but I think that having a sense of what your argument is, why it's important,
39
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:58,660
how you're going to improve it makes for a much easier reading experience for the for the evaluator, for the examiner.
40
00:04:58,660 --> 00:05:06,070
But I think it's also important for you as a candidate to know.
41
00:05:06,070 --> 00:05:14,590
Can you can you identify what it is that you're arguing and why you're arguing it, what's important about it?
42
00:05:14,590 --> 00:05:20,380
It sounds really simplistic, but oftentimes that's lacking.
43
00:05:20,380 --> 00:05:24,160
And so oftentimes, by the time you get to the the the Viva,
44
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:32,950
hopefully all of that is is quite clear is this is this sort of lack of structure or lack of signposting,
45
00:05:32,950 --> 00:05:39,430
something you you would you would hope to sort of signal the upgrade stage if it's not if it's not immediately clear.
46
00:05:39,430 --> 00:05:42,760
We do always signal it at the upgrade,
47
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:54,940
but especially now what we're reading in terms of the upgrade tends to be a very small number of pages compared to what the the thesis ends up being.
48
00:05:54,940 --> 00:06:01,120
There can sometimes be a little bit of an issue of if students go through the upgrade,
49
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:08,680
but they're still not able to mark out their argument and in a very clear way.
50
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,820
It's it's really easy to get lost when you're writing your thesis.
51
00:06:12,820 --> 00:06:16,480
And Edward, I have your thesis sitting in front of me.
52
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:24,280
And without the appendix, I seem to recall it was like three hundred and twenty nine pages, something like that.
53
00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:33,250
I think that's right. Yes. You know, it's it's it's really hard over many, many pages like that to remember.
54
00:06:33,250 --> 00:06:42,190
Well, how does how does page two hundred and twenty nine fit with what I said back on page seven.
55
00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:51,820
You've got to be able to to focus in on specific places in your argument, specific ideas,
56
00:06:51,820 --> 00:07:03,880
and yet still have an overarching idea of what it is that you're doing and how each specific idea responds to that overarching idea.
57
00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:10,570
And could I ask just for anyone who's not familiar with the term signposting, obviously how ideas relate to each other is one thing.
58
00:07:10,570 --> 00:07:15,460
But how would you describe signposting? Is that to do with how you signal all of that?
59
00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:25,690
Well, it's about how you signal the way that a very specific idea is important to your argument on
60
00:07:25,690 --> 00:07:33,760
a local level and important to your argument on a on a general universal overarching level.
61
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,590
And signposting doesn't mean anything really complicated.
62
00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:46,990
It can just mean explaining. I am looking at this particular idea because it relates to my argument in this way
63
00:07:46,990 --> 00:07:57,200
in relation to something is the idea of connective tissue signposting gives the.
64
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:58,190
Reader,
65
00:07:58,190 --> 00:08:11,510
the idea that you you know what this particular idea is doing for your argument and in your argument and your and you're telling that to the reader,
66
00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:16,250
connective tissue is making the connections between the idea.
67
00:08:16,250 --> 00:08:23,780
Why is it that one idea follows another idea that you do just simply with transitions
68
00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:31,010
And and I can be that it's important in terms of the paragraph structure.
69
00:08:31,010 --> 00:08:37,700
But typically speaking, by the time you're getting to writing your thesis, you don't have a problem with how you link paragraphs.
70
00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:41,870
It's more how you move from one idea to another.
71
00:08:41,870 --> 00:08:48,050
There's some really interesting and useful thoughts I think, that a lot of PGRs will find very helpful.
72
00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:56,120
Thanks. A lot of those were based around the sort of preparing for submission stage, if you like, what you do before you submit your thesis.
73
00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,380
So I was wondering if I could talk a little bit about the preparation for the Viva itself.
74
00:09:00,380 --> 00:09:05,360
You mentioned that you will have been reading the thesis through two, three, four times,
75
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:15,380
that you yourself have a hard copy and that you go from notes on the thesis to notes on a notepad, to notes on word document.
76
00:09:15,380 --> 00:09:20,300
Could I ask what you might suggest the students to be doing at that point?
77
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:28,160
How would you how would you advise a student to prepare for the viva if you were the examiner, for example?
78
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:34,790
It's hard to do, but I think that as much as you can move away,
79
00:09:34,790 --> 00:09:45,830
step away from your thesis and come back to it as if you weren't the person who wrote it and try to work out for yourself,
80
00:09:45,830 --> 00:09:51,130
how would someone who is external to the process see this?
81
00:09:51,130 --> 00:09:56,020
I think you can't do it on the computer. I really think you need to have a hard copy in front of you.
82
00:09:56,020 --> 00:10:01,240
I have vague memories of doing exactly that, actually, of going in sitting places with a hard copy deliberately.
83
00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,710
No screens in front of me going through and asking myself, so what with every few pages of the thesis?
84
00:10:06,710 --> 00:10:15,220
Yeah, it's not it's not easy to do. I think that first, when you're reading on a screen, you're not actually reading.
85
00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:20,470
Oftentimes you kind of your eyes just skip over words because they've become very familiar.
86
00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:24,940
So you really need to have, I think, the hard copy in front of you.
87
00:10:24,940 --> 00:10:33,910
And it's really hard to to read your own work as if you're not an interested party if if you know what I mean.
88
00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:41,530
What you can do is think to yourself, what kinds of questions?
89
00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:51,430
Do I want to be asked what kinds of questions scare me, what kind of questions am I really afraid of being asked?
90
00:10:51,430 --> 00:11:00,850
So if you can come up with a list, a list of potential questions that you might imagine the examiners asking,
91
00:11:00,850 --> 00:11:10,300
and how would you respond to those questions? What are the questions that are really scary for me that I really don't want my examiners to ask?
92
00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:17,590
Those are the ones that you probably need to pay the most attention to. I think that's that's that's a really useful piece of advice.
93
00:11:17,590 --> 00:11:21,920
Thank you. I remember actually that's something that happened in in my experience coming out of my upgrade.
94
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:27,850
viva your questions were fair, but also in many ways quite nightmarish,
95
00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:39,070
which provided me with a really good opportunity going into the final viva several years later to imagine you because you were the examiner.
96
00:11:39,070 --> 00:11:44,350
I knew at that point I'd met at least once imagining really difficult questions.
97
00:11:44,350 --> 00:11:47,500
And this led to me creating what I call the nightmare sheet,
98
00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:54,400
where I had some notes on the worst possible questions I could be asked and how I might how am I answer them?
99
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:59,770
I asked my supervisor on the morning of my Viva to put me on the spot and make me really uncomfortable for a few minutes.
100
00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:03,580
And did he? Oh, he did, yes. It was awkward because we know each other quite well.
101
00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:10,960
But now he did. He put me on the spot and he he helped me think through some of the some of the nightmare questions, if that makes sense.
102
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,500
And what about during the Viva itself then?
103
00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:22,390
Obviously it's a. A nerve wracking experience for the candidate, could I ask?
104
00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:26,770
You've mostly worked as an internal examiner, is that correct? That's right.
105
00:12:26,770 --> 00:12:35,770
So in the UK system at least, what contact is there between the the internal and the external examiner before the vivaitself?
106
00:12:35,770 --> 00:12:44,770
There is quite a bit of contact. Typically, we each have to fill out a preliminary report form.
107
00:12:44,770 --> 00:13:00,100
And in that report form, we give a sense of whether or not imagine that the dissertation fulfils the criteria for the award of the Ph.D.
108
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:09,070
So we have to be in agreement about that. So I'm sure many of us will already be familiar with what these criteria that you mention are.
109
00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:14,020
But can I ask if you'd be willing to just run through them again for anybody who's come across these for the first time?
110
00:13:14,020 --> 00:13:23,260
Of course, there are five different criteria. And actually you can find this in the TQA manual.
111
00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:32,530
Basically, you're you need to have shown that you've created and interpreted some kind of new knowledge.
112
00:13:32,530 --> 00:13:42,280
It needs to be original research, some advanced scholarship, something that peer review quality,
113
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,340
extending the forefront of the discipline and it merits publication.
114
00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:56,290
That's that's the first criterion. The second is a showing a systematic acquisition and understanding of a substantial body of knowledge,
115
00:13:56,290 --> 00:14:04,980
again, at the forefront of an academic discipline. You need to show the general ability to conceptualise,
116
00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:15,780
design and implement a project for the generation of new knowledge and the ability to adjust the project design in light of unforeseen problems.
117
00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:21,090
The fourth is a detailed understanding of applicable techniques and advanced
118
00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:28,080
academic enquiry and finally a satisfactory level of literary presentation.
119
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:40,790
So basically candidates, when they submit their thesis, the preliminary reports, look at whether or not the thesis.
120
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:47,030
Meets these criteria. So is there something original about it?
121
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:53,150
Is does it advance our knowledge in the discipline?
122
00:14:53,150 --> 00:15:02,390
Is it is it written in a high form of academic discourse or not?
123
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:12,610
I think the Vivais really important because it gives the candidate a chance to expose.
124
00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:27,610
What he or she has been working on for many, many years and for examiners to talk about the strengths and weaknesses of that approach,
125
00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:36,360
to give feedback, to give ideas for how this might be shaped into a book, that kind of thing.
126
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,790
Believe it or not, for me, the Viva is meant to be much more of a friendly process.
127
00:15:42,790 --> 00:15:54,100
I know that it probably didn't feel like that to you, but by the time you are at the level of submitting a PhD thesis,
128
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:58,360
it means that you're entering into a different circle, if you will.
129
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:04,910
You're becoming a peer as opposed to a student. So I was wondering if we could just sort of fast forward a bit.
130
00:16:04,910 --> 00:16:09,760
You've the candidate has just walked into the viva or logged on.
131
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:19,720
If we're doing things in the covid format, you have produced a preliminary report that you have discussed with the the external examiner.
132
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,010
You've come to a sort of preliminary conclusion. Is that right?
133
00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:34,600
That's right, the preliminary report really just says something like this, this thesis meets the criteria for these reasons,
134
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:46,960
there may be these issues or I anticipate the viva dealing with particular maybe problems.
135
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:54,910
So it's kind of a brief evaluation. So obviously that brings us quite neatly onto the Viva itself.
136
00:16:54,910 --> 00:17:00,400
It's clearly a very stressful experience for the candidate when they're sitting there or logged on
137
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:09,460
there with two experts in the field being being grilled or at least being asked challenging questions.
138
00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:18,520
What? Do you hope to see from candidates during during that viva process?
139
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:26,630
I think one of the hardest things for. Candidates is listening.
140
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:40,280
I think there's so much stress that sometimes candidates find it very difficult to properly listen to to what the examiner is asking,
141
00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:52,690
and if you can remove yourself slightly from the fact that this is your work and think about as you're being asked questions.
142
00:17:52,690 --> 00:18:02,860
What's useful about that question? I mean, I think examiners are not trying to, again, trap you or trick you or anything.
143
00:18:02,860 --> 00:18:06,370
We're really there to improve the work.
144
00:18:06,370 --> 00:18:17,140
And so sometimes I've found that candidates are really, really stressed and not always paying attention to what's going on.
145
00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:22,510
This isn't always the case. It certainly wasn't the case when you were doing your viva
146
00:18:22,510 --> 00:18:30,250
But I think you need to be open to the conversation going in directions that you may not have anticipated.
147
00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:38,650
What I like to see as a student or a candidate who is responsive to what's being said and
148
00:18:38,650 --> 00:18:46,200
what's being asked instead of kind of turning your wheels on and rehearsing arguments.
149
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:54,250
And I mean, in other words, if we're asking a question and you give the same answer that you gave in your thesis,
150
00:18:54,250 --> 00:19:04,330
you probably want to elaborate a little bit more, because if you're asking the question, it means that you haven't done quite enough in writing.
151
00:19:04,330 --> 00:19:10,840
And we want a little bit more in in your oral expression.
152
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,280
And this presumably comes back to what you can do to do prepare for the viva as well.
153
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:21,340
You can go through and you can annotate these points that you thought might be
154
00:19:21,340 --> 00:19:24,850
asked about in the viva and develop them further than in preparation for.
155
00:19:24,850 --> 00:19:36,610
That's right. You it's good to think about. Well, what kinds of ideas could I have elaborated on that maybe I didn't as as thoroughly as I might have.
156
00:19:36,610 --> 00:19:41,200
And obviously the viva itself can go on for quite a length of time.
157
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:49,240
Our one was was four hours, which I think is the maximum that allows.
158
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:57,750
It's often said that the length of the Viva does not necessarily correspond to how well the candidate does.
159
00:19:57,750 --> 00:20:03,400
So a 90 minute Viva doesn't mean an excellent candidate necessarily and a four hour viva
160
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,670
Doesn't necessarily mean, you know, a candidate nearly failed.
161
00:20:07,670 --> 00:20:10,900
Would you say a little bit more about the sort of the length of time?
162
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:17,890
Because I know that from my experience, your vivas tend to be quite long ones, don't they?
163
00:20:17,890 --> 00:20:24,160
I guess I'm always really interested in what I'm reading and I always have a lot of questions.
164
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:33,910
I would agree that the length of the Viva doesn't reflect at all the quality of the thesis or the quality of the Viva
165
00:20:33,910 --> 00:20:43,510
Again, I wouldn't assume that if you're Vivir is over in an hour and a half that you've completely done a terrible job.
166
00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:50,980
Typically we give you some sense at the end of the viva of how we thought it went.
167
00:20:50,980 --> 00:20:57,280
So you get immediate feedback, at least informal feedback.
168
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:09,040
I remember you telling me at the end of my viva I was quite a fighter, if I remember correctly, which was an interesting term to use.
169
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,210
I think you were sort of I think that was a compliment or it was.
170
00:21:13,210 --> 00:21:17,650
Yeah, in the sense that I was kind of I was able to defend my points,
171
00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:23,840
but it was and that's I think that's the kind of feedback that you're referring to, that when you say informal feedback, is that is that fair to say?
172
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:33,550
Yeah, that's right. And actually, that kind of you have to be really careful because what you did in your viva in your Viva and the
173
00:21:33,550 --> 00:21:43,450
way that you were a fighter was that you answered the questions in in such a way as to be persuasive.
174
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:49,360
You didn't rehash your thesis where there might have been weak points.
175
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:58,270
You were actually you actually really broadened the perspective in a way that was effective.
176
00:21:58,270 --> 00:22:04,980
Thank you for saying so. Saying that someone was a fighter could be one of two.
177
00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:12,850
It could be complementary, but it could also be you haven't really been listening to what we're asking in our case.
178
00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:16,360
In your case, that that wasn't what was going on.
179
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:22,990
I was I thought I thought you might want to clarify that, because I can see It could definitely be argued one way or the other.
180
00:22:22,990 --> 00:22:27,910
So that brings us rather neatly to the possible outcomes.
181
00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:32,110
I think of the viva. I mean, in my view, you know, I got minor corrections.
182
00:22:32,110 --> 00:22:43,690
That's one of four possible outcomes that you can have. You mentioned that you have had experience of examining candidates who got major corrections,
183
00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:47,290
which is something that I know a lot of people are afraid of.
184
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:50,740
It's unlikely that you'll end up with major corrections.
185
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:56,350
But I was wondering if you could say a bit more about your experience with that and whether it was the the end of the world
186
00:22:56,350 --> 00:23:06,430
as as some candidates seem to think definitely for this particular individual was not it was not the end of the world.
187
00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:12,850
I think it was it was shattering at the moment for the student
188
00:23:12,850 --> 00:23:25,750
I think the student was was really not anticipating this as a as a potential outcome in hindsight.
189
00:23:25,750 --> 00:23:29,270
And this is where hindsight is always so.
190
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:40,880
Great, the work was significantly improved, so much so that I'm really hoping it's going to come out as a book.
191
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:53,330
I think, again, the purpose of viva is to allow you to elaborate on areas that you may not have done
192
00:23:53,330 --> 00:24:01,370
so well for you to get feedback on your thesis and try to work out how to make it better,
193
00:24:01,370 --> 00:24:09,590
how to make it into something that will actually be read by other people and not just by your examiners.
194
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:15,680
So it might feel like a kind of a violent process.
195
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:26,960
But if if you can sort of de-stress and think this is only for my thesis to be better,
196
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:34,790
stronger, more persuasive, publishable, you'll be a lot more at ease.
197
00:24:34,790 --> 00:24:41,780
And I think you you'll have a different experience of the Viva
198
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:47,150
I know that from my experience, you were kind enough. I know this may not happen in every case.
199
00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:55,340
You and Jocelyn my external, were kind enough to provide me with sort of two levels of corrections.
200
00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:58,760
So while I got minor corrections at the thesis level,
201
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:06,140
you made some more sort of substantial points that I'll need to consider as and when I look to publish this in book form.
202
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:14,990
And I think that's a really, really interesting point to end on, actually, is that the thesis you mentioned this earlier is a living document,
203
00:25:14,990 --> 00:25:22,340
and the Viva aims to look at it not just as a thesis, but also is it fair to say to give you advice going forward with it?
204
00:25:22,340 --> 00:25:29,480
Absolutely. It might be that your thesis will be divided up into articles that you'll send out.
205
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,580
It might be that you you will have just a couple of chapters.
206
00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:37,010
You'll add a couple more and that will be a book.
207
00:25:37,010 --> 00:25:47,570
And what you didn't include in your thesis will be an article where really we're think we're training you to be academics.
208
00:25:47,570 --> 00:25:58,160
When you get a Ph.D., we're assuming that you're going to be entering into this academic world.
209
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:03,510
What do you need to do in order to be be a part of this academic world?
210
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:04,370
You need to publish.
211
00:26:04,370 --> 00:26:15,860
And so part of the purpose of the Viva is to give you feedback not just on what you've produced, but on what you might do with what you've produced.
212
00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:21,950
I mean, obviously, not everyone will go into academia after a Ph.D., but of course,
213
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:27,140
it's it's very useful to know that that's what the the the the beauty viva is at least that
214
00:26:27,140 --> 00:26:33,830
of preparing you for and training you for that is part of a part of a massive pipeline.
215
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:34,160
You know,
216
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:47,270
it may be that there are parts of your of your PhD thesis that you decide you want to put onto a blog or to send to a newspaper publication.
217
00:26:47,270 --> 00:26:55,560
Again, thinking about who your audience is and how you might need to disseminate that information for more of a lay reader.
218
00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,100
And, you know, even if even if you don't go on in academia, if you decide that, you know,
219
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:13,640
teaching in a university is not your dream job after all, think about the kinds of transferable skills that you've learnt in writing your thesis.
220
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:21,680
You've you've learnt how to research. You've learnt how to evaluate other scholarship.
221
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:28,370
You you know how to situate your ideas. You know how to express your ideas in a persuasive way.
222
00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:33,260
These are important skills for any any field.
223
00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:49,080
Is the process of submitting your thesis of going through the Viva is admittedly an inherently stressful, but it really is designed to.
224
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,800
Make sure that your work is the best that it can be, and that's what we're aiming for.
225
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,500
I certainly found in my experience with you as my internal that that was that was what I got out of.
226
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:09,370
It was very stressful beforehand. I was I was incredibly nervous going into it.
227
00:28:09,370 --> 00:28:15,750
May have may have walked the entire circumference of the small room I was in about 50 times beforehand.
228
00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:23,790
But coming out of it, I definitely felt like the comments that I got had the potential to make the thesis better.
229
00:28:23,790 --> 00:28:30,000
And the list of comments that I got, which I then went away and put into an Excel spreadsheet,
230
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:38,370
really were a crucial tool when it came to revising the thesis and making it better, I think, to to come back to a term that you've used the you know,
231
00:28:38,370 --> 00:28:48,750
the other thing about viva that's really, really lovely and amazing is that you're having a discussion about your work
232
00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:57,270
with two experts and you might have a four hour conversation about your work.
233
00:28:57,270 --> 00:29:04,530
Very well. Yes. And how how how rare is that?
234
00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:15,660
I mean, how it's so unusual that you're able to get so much feedback and have to be engaged in this really intellectually stimulating conversation,
235
00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:25,140
not just for half an hour, but for four hours on a subject that means so much to you.
236
00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:33,660
So I think I think there is something really special about the viva, because it really is all about you and all about your work.
237
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:39,780
And that kind of attention is and isn't always so common.
238
00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:46,500
And I think that's a really positive note to end on, actually, given all of the concerns that many of us have about the viva
239
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:53,600
it's great to hear a bit more there about how it can actually be a really rewarding and positive experience.
240
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,040
Thank you so much to Edward and Michelle, but also to John and Bice for what I think has been a really,
241
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,010
really rich trio of episodes about the process of the Viva
242
00:30:04,010 --> 00:30:08,570
It's something that causes a huge amount of anxiety to PGRs.
243
00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:17,600
And I really, really hope that the insights of these three academics and the level of reflection and compassion
244
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:25,480
with which they spoke will really reassure you in the supportiveness and integrity of this process.
245
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,700
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.
246
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:57,321
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.
Wednesday Jun 09, 2021
Preparing for your (HASS) Viva
Wednesday Jun 09, 2021
Wednesday Jun 09, 2021
In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Dr. Bice Maiguashca, Associate Professor in Politics about preparing for your viva in HASS subjects.
This is the second in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast Transcript
1
00:00:09,170 --> 00:00:15,800
Hello and welcome to R, D and the In Betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,
2
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:32,520
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers, development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:40,180
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and The Inbetweens, this is the second episode in a series where our guest host,
4
00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:46,470
Dr. Edward Mills, talks to academics and examiners all about the viva process.
5
00:00:46,470 --> 00:00:50,040
In this episode, Edward is talking to Bice Maiguashca
6
00:00:50,040 --> 00:01:00,000
who is an associate professor in the politics department at the University of Exeter, giving her experience and advice as an examiner,
7
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:01,950
as a supervisor,
8
00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:11,250
and reiterating some of the really excellent advice and support she's given to our PGRs over the years through our Preparing for your viva workshops.
9
00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:20,490
So it's over to you Ed. hello. Today I am speaking with Bice Maiguashca, who is a professor in the politics department,
10
00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:29,280
about her experiences as an internal and external and also as a non examining independent chair.
11
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,410
OK, so could you start just by saying a little bit about yourself, please?
12
00:01:34,410 --> 00:01:44,130
Sure. I'm an associate professor in the politics department and my research, very broadly speaking,
13
00:01:44,130 --> 00:01:50,850
is on the politics of resistance and more specifically on left politics.
14
00:01:50,850 --> 00:01:56,910
So left social movements as well as left politics in Britain.
15
00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:03,930
And I tend to approach the subject from a feminist perspective. So that's my academic sort of area of expertise.
16
00:02:03,930 --> 00:02:09,450
And so what can I ask? What's your experience as an examiner then of PhD thesis?
17
00:02:09,450 --> 00:02:12,870
I have both taken on both roles.
18
00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:14,850
Well, actually all three roles.
19
00:02:14,850 --> 00:02:27,840
I have been the supervisor, a supervisor to ten students, 10 PhD students, and I have been both internal examiners and external examiners.
20
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:33,600
And in addition, I've also played the role of independent chair on numerous occasions.
21
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,650
I suppose the first thing to ask is a question that I've asked everybody I've spoken to thus far,
22
00:02:37,650 --> 00:02:44,430
which is when you're examining a PhD thesis as an internal and external examiner,
23
00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:49,120
what do you do when you when you get a thesis in front of you for the first time?
24
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:57,270
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing you do is you decide when you're going to at what point you're going to
25
00:02:57,270 --> 00:03:03,270
read it and you want to make sure when you do that you have several hours ahead of you.
26
00:03:03,270 --> 00:03:08,280
In other words, at least in my experience, in my view, you can't read a thesis
27
00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:13,230
or at least I can't read the thesis over several days in small chunks.
28
00:03:13,230 --> 00:03:24,510
So I pick up the thesis and I make sure that I have three to four or five hours to focus on it, to make myself comfortable with something.
29
00:03:24,510 --> 00:03:31,770
And I read the introduction and the conclusion, and this may be very individual,
30
00:03:31,770 --> 00:03:39,780
idiosyncratic thing to do, but for me, I need to have a general map of the thesis before I dive in
31
00:03:39,780 --> 00:03:45,780
So I want to have a sense of what the story line is.
32
00:03:45,780 --> 00:03:52,950
In other words, a thesis for me and for no academic. is never read sort of as a myth, as a mystery novel, if you like,
33
00:03:52,950 --> 00:03:59,220
where the the the the plot line emerges at the end or the punch line emerges at the end.
34
00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:06,870
We like to know what's going on, what the aims of the thesis are, what the argument is going to be foregrounded at the beginning.
35
00:04:06,870 --> 00:04:14,820
So I read the introduction. I then read the conclusion. So I have a sense of the both, if you like, the bookends of the thesis.
36
00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:20,220
I have an overall map of the thesis in my mind, and then I dive into Chapter one,
37
00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:26,520
start looking for story line as well as the evidence which is going to sustain it.
38
00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,570
Reading the introduction, the conclusion of the thesis. Yes, some examiners may do that.
39
00:04:30,570 --> 00:04:38,190
Some some may not. But it's interesting to hear you talk about the the storyline of a thesis.
40
00:04:38,190 --> 00:04:40,710
Could you say a bit more about what you mean by the story line?
41
00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:50,430
Yeah, OK, so I think it's very important that the introduction of a thesis does four things and they all add up.
42
00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:58,020
If you like the story line in some sense of the thesis, the first thing that the introduction needs to do,
43
00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:08,970
in my view, is establish the puzzle or the problem or the research question that the student is trying to tackle.
44
00:05:08,970 --> 00:05:16,430
So what is the thesis about and what questions is it trying to answer?
45
00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:24,140
The second aspect, if you like, of this storyline has to do with the answer to that question.
46
00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:30,960
In other words, what is the argument? Of the PhD
47
00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,620
What is the thesis? That the student is putting forward.
48
00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:47,300
So that's the second bit, the third part of the storyline is why that question needs to be answered in academic terms.
49
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:56,630
What is important about that question? Another way of putting this part of the storyline is to call it the rationale of the thesis.
50
00:05:56,630 --> 00:06:00,950
What is the rationale of the thesis? And you can have two types of rationale.
51
00:06:00,950 --> 00:06:09,840
You can have an academic rationale. In other words, there is a gap in the literature or perhaps there is a gap in the literature.
52
00:06:09,840 --> 00:06:19,460
But this is an important question and hasn't been studied. And the second form of rationale that might be relevant, particularly politics students,
53
00:06:19,460 --> 00:06:25,700
perhaps to others, is that there may be a political or social rationale for doing the thesis.
54
00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:34,290
In other words, it's tackling a particularly important political or social problem that begs to be solved.
55
00:06:34,290 --> 00:06:47,300
And the fourth thing that I think a reader needs to find in the introduction is an explanation of how they proceeded to do the research.
56
00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:52,300
In other words, what's otherwise called the methodology of the thesis.
57
00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:59,760
So just to recap, in the introduction of the thesis, the reader is looking for four things.
58
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,420
What is the puzzle? What is the argument of the thesis?
59
00:07:04,420 --> 00:07:10,150
Why does the puzzle and argument matter? In other words, contribution to knowledge?
60
00:07:10,150 --> 00:07:19,810
And finally, how has the student undertaken this research and why have they made the choices that they have in terms of methodology?
61
00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:32,200
Those four pillars hold up thesis in many respects and need to be foregrounded in the introduction and then perhaps revisited in the conclusion.
62
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,860
I don't know how you wrote your introduction, but does that sound familiar to you?
63
00:07:35,860 --> 00:07:44,590
That sounds very familiar, particularly given the advice that a lot of people are given to do their introduction last.
64
00:07:44,590 --> 00:07:50,560
Right. OK, certainly that might sound slightly odd in the.
65
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,730
Does that sound odd? This this may or may not make it into the final cut? I think I've heard people say it before, but I don't think it's realistic.
66
00:07:57,730 --> 00:08:09,850
So what I would say is that your the introduction of all the chapters in your thesis is the one that perhaps is rewritten and evolves the most.
67
00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:13,450
In other words, I think one can't write it at the end.
68
00:08:13,450 --> 00:08:20,030
One has to write it at the beginning because it's usually provides the student with a roadmap of what they intend to do.
69
00:08:20,030 --> 00:08:26,830
And I always get my students to turn their research proposals or proposals into some form of introduction.
70
00:08:26,830 --> 00:08:32,800
As they expand on the puzzle, they expand on the rationale and they expand on the methodology,
71
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,580
even if they're not entirely sure about the argument itself,
72
00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:47,320
because they still have to do the research, if you understand what I mean, and they then go back and revisit the introduction as they move forward.
73
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,970
So I think there are multiple iterations of an introduction.
74
00:08:51,970 --> 00:09:01,480
Go back to it at the end of the thesis when you finish the whole draft and yes, indeed, one then goes and edits it, the final draft, so to speak.
75
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,650
At the end of the writing of your thesis, you need a copy, if you like,
76
00:09:05,650 --> 00:09:10,810
a draft of the introduction at the beginning as well to give you focus and direction.
77
00:09:10,810 --> 00:09:18,610
Yeah, I think that's very fair. Actually, a lot of my introduction was written in the first year of the thesis but was then quite substantially revised.
78
00:09:18,610 --> 00:09:21,760
Once the argument had become clearer.
79
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:31,360
I suppose to an extent the kind of solution part of your four stage, your four pillars might be the bit that needs to be rewritten most.
80
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:39,010
But that's a that's a very good point, actually. Thank you. What contact do the internal and external examiners have before the viva?
81
00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:43,420
And what do they what do they have to produce before the viva starts?
82
00:09:43,420 --> 00:09:53,800
So the internal and external normally contact each other after they've read the thesis.
83
00:09:53,800 --> 00:10:06,340
In fact, it's the been the internal job to organise the time and place of the vivaand to agree that with the external and the student,
84
00:10:06,340 --> 00:10:13,120
then the internal and external, each separately without consulting with each other.
85
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:26,110
Write What's called a preliminary report in that preliminary report, they normally start off by summarising what they think the PhD is trying to do.
86
00:10:26,110 --> 00:10:32,710
So their understanding of what the aims of these are, the rationale and the methodology.
87
00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:36,410
So that's normally the first couple of paragraphs of the preliminary report.
88
00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:43,360
That's why it's so important in your introduction, you make sure that those key aspects of the thesis are clear.
89
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,920
Then they go on to assess each one of them in some detail.
90
00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:59,800
In other words, they they offer their evaluation of how well the student has done each and then they determine a preliminary outcome.
91
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:07,930
In other words, they recommend minor revisions or major revisions or a pass, an unconditional pass.
92
00:11:07,930 --> 00:11:16,510
Those preliminary reports are then exchanged prior to the viva, usually some days before.
93
00:11:16,510 --> 00:11:21,910
And so so that each can reflect on the views of the other.
94
00:11:21,910 --> 00:11:30,430
Then they usually meet wherever the is taking place, often over lunch prior to the viva or or over coffee.
95
00:11:30,430 --> 00:11:36,100
They discuss their agreements and disagreements before they go in to the viva
96
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:41,620
So when you when the student enters into the room, internal and external have already met each other.
97
00:11:41,620 --> 00:11:46,210
They've already had a substantive discussion about the thesis and about their views.
98
00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:50,670
It will always be some differences and they will have come to.
99
00:11:50,670 --> 00:12:01,020
An initial view on the thesis and its quality and the recommendation they would like to make at the end of the two or three hour,
100
00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:10,320
viva students will be asked to sit out to the outside and the internal and external will deliberate once again and see whether,
101
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,410
in fact, their view still stands or whether, in fact, they want to shift that view based on viva
102
00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,360
That's why the viva does matter.
103
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:27,940
So jumping forward slightly, then let's just imagine you sat down with your cup of tea on the thesis, which is a lovely image, by the way.
104
00:12:27,940 --> 00:12:35,470
What would you advise a student to be to be doing in that time, this kind of awkward 70 days?
105
00:12:35,470 --> 00:12:40,150
I mean, it can be it can be a significant amount of time between the Viva and the submission and viva rather
106
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:43,930
So what would you how would you recommend a student spend that time?
107
00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:55,330
Well, I think you normally have about, am I right, three months between submission and the actual viva.
108
00:12:55,330 --> 00:12:58,690
That was certainly the case for me. I think it can be slightly more than that.
109
00:12:58,690 --> 00:13:02,000
But also, yes, it can be more.
110
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:10,330
But regardless of how long you have, I think the first thing you should do is actually take a rest.
111
00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:20,200
You probably will working very intensely on your project until submission point, and you're probably saturated by it.
112
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:26,770
And I think I say that you should take a rest, not just because you should take care of yourself and for well-being reasons,
113
00:13:26,770 --> 00:13:34,630
but also because while you're taking a rest, you are gaining critical distance from your thesis.
114
00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:45,460
And I think that's very important. Before you go into the viva that you develop some critical distance from it so that when you return to the thesis,
115
00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:51,510
which you must do in order to prepare for the viva, which is worth doing.
116
00:13:51,510 --> 00:13:58,410
You know, it's not that you've forgotten what you've written, but that you can somehow see it through clearer,
117
00:13:58,410 --> 00:14:04,080
more self-critical eyes, and I think that perspective is crucial.
118
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,750
So after you've taken perhaps two or three weeks off, perhaps even a month, if you can,
119
00:14:09,750 --> 00:14:14,100
it could involve a holiday, but it also could involve just doing other work.
120
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:19,530
What you want to do is turn your mind away from the project, think about other things,
121
00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:24,420
and then come back to it afresh and you will see it with different eyes.
122
00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:32,040
And that experience of coming back to your project after leaving it for a little while is both exhilarating and exciting.
123
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,050
Also a little scary and sometimes a little frustrating because you, of course,
124
00:14:37,050 --> 00:14:43,530
reread it and realise the strength of the thesis as well as its limitations.
125
00:14:43,530 --> 00:14:52,050
But I think that's very important that you go into a knowing its strengths because you might even be asked this question by a cheeky external.
126
00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:57,480
What are the strengths of the thesis and what do you think the limitations of your work are?
127
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:07,290
So once you've, if you like, undertaken the moves to put you in that perspective or to acquire that perspective,
128
00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:18,540
and you need to prepare to answer four questions, there is no way you're going to have a viva without being asked all four of these questions.
129
00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:25,280
And of course, they're not going to be surprising because they pertain to the four pillars, if you like, of the the storyline of the.
130
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:31,070
The first question you're going to be asked, and sometimes it comes up at the very beginning of your viva,
131
00:15:31,070 --> 00:15:35,630
is your research question, your puzzle, your problem?
132
00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:41,540
They may ask they may ask the question in different ways. Why did you choose this topic?
133
00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:47,570
What brought you to this question? Why did you think it was so important?
134
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:52,270
But they will ask you to explain your puzzle.
135
00:15:52,270 --> 00:15:59,390
In other words, the aims of your thesis. Second of all, they will ask you.
136
00:15:59,390 --> 00:16:09,170
What your argument is. So, in fact, I have been in the viva once where I think the external I wouldn't have done it this way,
137
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:16,480
but the external the first question she asked was, so tell me in two sentences what your thesis is.
138
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:26,720
But you need to practise articulating the argument of your thesis in one or two sentences just in case you're put on the spot.
139
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,240
Third, you're going to be asked questions around the rationale of the thesis,
140
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:43,720
why you thought it was an important project to pursue in academic terms, and what do you think the contribution to knowledge is?
141
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:49,270
And finally, they're going to ask you about how you did your research.
142
00:16:49,270 --> 00:16:57,790
So in other words, your methodology, the entire viva, will be structured around those four broad questions.
143
00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:08,090
And depending on your answers, you will get subsequent questions pushing you to illuminate the work that you've done.
144
00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:12,050
So I would prepare for the viva in the interim,
145
00:17:12,050 --> 00:17:18,920
I would not believe what I've heard from some students and some colleagues that the viva doesn't really matter.
146
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,910
Some people would argue that in the end, what really matters is the thesis itself.
147
00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:31,130
In other words, what you've written, that is what's being tested and that what you actually say in the viva is neither here nor there,
148
00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:39,500
apart from the fact that one of the purposes, one of the functions of Avivah is to actually establish that you're the author of the.
149
00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:42,740
So that's that's that's one function.
150
00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:53,330
But I would argue that preparing for the viva is incredibly important for the outcome in two ways, one, emotionally and psychologically.
151
00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:58,340
In other words, you're more likely to have a good experience in the viva.
152
00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:02,900
In other words, a good conversation with your internal and external,
153
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:10,590
if you know your thesis well and you're prepared to answer questions around those four pillars.
154
00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:21,810
And I think, second of all, if by any chance there is a difference of opinion between the internal and external about what the outcome should be,
155
00:18:21,810 --> 00:18:30,030
let's say minor revision versus major revision, your answers to those four very broad questions.
156
00:18:30,030 --> 00:18:36,890
can help them decide whether it's going to be minor or major.
157
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:48,710
So I strongly advise students to prepare for the viva both so that they have fun and also so that the outcome is as good as it can be.
158
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:53,150
There was one term that you used there, which I think a lot of people will have heard many,
159
00:18:53,150 --> 00:18:57,020
many times, but I think it might be worth spending them to unpick if that's OK.
160
00:18:57,020 --> 00:19:00,770
It's the idea of the Viva as a conversation,
161
00:19:00,770 --> 00:19:07,310
which I think is connected to what you were saying earlier about how depending on the answers you give to certain questions,
162
00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:11,000
the the examiners can go down different roads.
163
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:18,320
So when you think of a presumably a good viva as a good conversation, what do you what do you mean by that?
164
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,400
How is it different from, say, an interview, for example?
165
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:34,550
I think conversation or dialogue as a way of describing the thesis as well as viva is, is a helpful way of thinking about the whole process.
166
00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:41,640
So let me start by saying that in many respects, a thesis or a PhD
167
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:50,880
Is in fact, the product of a conversation, so in the rationale of your of your thesis,
168
00:19:50,880 --> 00:20:01,210
where you explain why you pursued this particular puzzle, you will need to lay out an academic academic conversation about your topic.
169
00:20:01,210 --> 00:20:04,330
It's often called the literature review.
170
00:20:04,330 --> 00:20:15,430
So the thesis itself represents a conversation between a group of academics who may agree or disagree with each other and yourself, in other words,
171
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:26,610
when you write a thesis as a student, you are intervening or you're seeking to intervene in a dialogue amongst experts about the subject.
172
00:20:26,610 --> 00:20:36,230
When you do your Viva. Then you have a second type of conversation, you have a conversation with two experts in the field.
173
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:44,960
About the conversation you've had in your thesis. So in other words, with your with your viva
174
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:53,420
your internal and external are interested not so much in determining whether they agree with your
175
00:20:53,420 --> 00:21:03,800
answers or not or whether they understand how you've come to them and why you've come to them.
176
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:11,390
Which comes itself to another point, which I think you may have raised in the discussion that I was actually in your experience.
177
00:21:11,390 --> 00:21:19,310
Is it possible to pass a viva, even if you examine it, totally disagree with your conclusions?
178
00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:26,390
I think that depends on what one means by disagree with one's conclusions.
179
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:36,380
I'm speculating here. I'm not in the sciences, but I'm wondering whether perhaps in the sciences that may not be possible.
180
00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:41,540
In other words, if they think that you've done i don't know you've performed
181
00:21:41,540 --> 00:21:49,280
like the formulas incorrectly or misunderstood your formulas or use the wrong ones and therefore have the wrong outcomes,
182
00:21:49,280 --> 00:22:00,680
it's quite possible that perhaps you don't pass. I think in the social sciences, there's it can be a matter of interpretation.
183
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:09,150
So in the social sciences, what they will be checking and what I would check for is the level of scholarship.
184
00:22:09,150 --> 00:22:11,220
Involved in the thesis.
185
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:22,440
In other words, has this student engaged with the right, with the relevant literature on the subject, or have they missed certain literature?
186
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:30,140
Do they show a good grasp of the conceptual and empirical material that's out there?
187
00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:39,140
And have they managed to mobilise evidence to sustain the argument that they're making?
188
00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:46,820
If they do all of that, and I still disagree perhaps with either the direction they've taken or,
189
00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:53,930
as you put it, the outcomes, then yes, yes, they will still pass.
190
00:22:53,930 --> 00:23:05,940
I've had a number of students who have mobilised or deployed theoretical perspectives that I don't find particularly interesting and or helpful.
191
00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:11,160
And a brilliant thesis can be written using both theoretical perspectives,
192
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,840
even if I'm perhaps not enamoured with them because I think there are problems.
193
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,350
So I might raise those problems in the viva to make sure they understand the limits of that perspective.
194
00:23:22,350 --> 00:23:28,560
But I'm going to be very happy passing them if they have done a good job mobilising evidence
195
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:34,420
for their case and showing a good understanding of the theoretical perspective and its limits.
196
00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:35,170
So thank you for that.
197
00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:43,216
I think that's a really good clarification of a point that a lot of people will have heard but may not have been able to express in detail.
198
00:23:43,216 --> 00:23:50,716
So let's jump forward now to the Viva itself. I mean, with everything we've spoken about, this has been Viva to some degree, but.
199
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:55,776
As an examiner, whether an internal or external.
200
00:23:55,776 --> 00:24:11,046
What frustrates you in a viva, I think some viva I've really enjoyed some this and I found other viva is very difficult to get through.
201
00:24:11,046 --> 00:24:21,516
I think one of the things that students should keep in mind, as I said earlier, is that viva is a dialogue.
202
00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:34,416
It's a dialogue between three people, sometimes four, depending on whether you have two externals and one internal or just one external, one internal.
203
00:24:34,416 --> 00:24:44,946
And I think students should keep in mind that although it's intimate and that there are only three of you in a room or perhaps four,
204
00:24:44,946 --> 00:24:50,046
but somehow externals and internals are people, too,
205
00:24:50,046 --> 00:24:58,026
and that they may also come to the viva with their own baggage and in fact, may feel a little bit nervous.
206
00:24:58,026 --> 00:25:04,056
In other words, it's a performance and the student is performing, but so is the internal and so the external,
207
00:25:04,056 --> 00:25:08,886
especially if there's an internal chair and internal chair presence as well.
208
00:25:08,886 --> 00:25:18,426
And so what one wants in the performance of the viva is everyone to listen to each other,
209
00:25:18,426 --> 00:25:24,546
to be respectful and polite with each other and to enjoy it.
210
00:25:24,546 --> 00:25:31,626
So one of the things that frustrates me, if you like, is and I realise it can't be helped,
211
00:25:31,626 --> 00:25:38,916
is that if a student is so nervous that they can't engage in that dialogue.
212
00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:46,596
In other words, if they haven't prepared and therefore thrown by questions about what their puzzle is or what their thesis is,
213
00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:52,026
etc., then that conversation can slowly grind to a halt.
214
00:25:52,026 --> 00:25:58,356
And that can be frustrating for for the student, but also for the internal and external.
215
00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:03,216
So, in fact, you want the students to go into the viva, not only well prepared, in other words,
216
00:26:03,216 --> 00:26:11,706
they know their thesis well, but also hopefully you want them to go in with some enthusiasm.
217
00:26:11,706 --> 00:26:16,506
Remember, the internal and the external are experts in the field.
218
00:26:16,506 --> 00:26:23,406
And therefore, this is the you should see the viva as an opportunity to have a good natter with two people in your
219
00:26:23,406 --> 00:26:34,566
field who are interested in your project and who may well in the future become referees for jobs.
220
00:26:34,566 --> 00:26:41,286
So I think I realise this is a big ask because it's normal to be nervousl, to be nervous,
221
00:26:41,286 --> 00:26:45,576
but I strongly believe that preparing for a viva can actually reduce that
222
00:26:45,576 --> 00:26:53,816
problem and help you perform in a relaxed and congenial way in the actual viva
223
00:26:53,816 --> 00:26:58,846
I think my advice to students who are going into the viva.
224
00:26:58,846 --> 00:27:04,726
Is that they to the best of their ability, and I understand it's a nerve wracking moment,
225
00:27:04,726 --> 00:27:13,216
but they must try very hard not to become defensive in the viva
226
00:27:13,216 --> 00:27:21,346
I think I have been in some Vivas where the student has become overly defensive.
227
00:27:21,346 --> 00:27:33,916
I realise it's partly because of nerves. And as a result, the conversation has become stilted and in fact, sometimes uncomfortable.
228
00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:42,086
So remember, students need to remember that the internal and external, it's part of their job.
229
00:27:42,086 --> 00:27:48,556
It's part of their mandate to critically interrogate the piece of work in front of them
230
00:27:48,556 --> 00:27:56,316
and to engage you in a robust conversation about its strengths as well as its limits.
231
00:27:56,316 --> 00:28:07,296
So while I'm not suggesting you should concede on every point raised by the internal or external critical point, you must defend the.
232
00:28:07,296 --> 00:28:15,936
You must not become defensive. You must acknowledge that there are some limits to it.
233
00:28:15,936 --> 00:28:21,186
And you must show an understanding of why those limits arose.
234
00:28:21,186 --> 00:28:30,036
But whatever you do, don't go in there defensive because it will make your internal and external examiners defensive in return.
235
00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:34,656
So would you mind saying a bit more about major correction?
236
00:28:34,656 --> 00:28:42,126
Because I know it's something a lot of people are worried about. What's your experience with major corrections as opposed to minor?
237
00:28:42,126 --> 00:28:47,136
I think there are more major revisions than people realise. Let me put it that way.
238
00:28:47,136 --> 00:28:53,406
I think students often think that getting major revisions is a disaster.
239
00:28:53,406 --> 00:29:03,366
It's not. It's not. I mean, if you look at the if you look at the what do you call it from the description of each category,
240
00:29:03,366 --> 00:29:13,266
minor revisions should arguably only involve changes to the text typos or adding references or
241
00:29:13,266 --> 00:29:21,906
perhaps adding a table and perhaps adding a little bit of research in one discrete chapter.
242
00:29:21,906 --> 00:29:32,696
Anything more than that, anything that would require you to do the cuts across the chapters, for example, will go under major revisions.
243
00:29:32,696 --> 00:29:42,296
And yet that that may be necessary and may not take that long to do so, I think a lot of students do get major.
244
00:29:42,296 --> 00:29:52,676
That's my impression, especially since I think some years ago they made a change and they narrowed minor revisions down to two very small changes.
245
00:29:52,676 --> 00:29:56,606
So I would just encourage students to to not panic.
246
00:29:56,606 --> 00:30:01,856
They get major revisions to see that is eminently doable.
247
00:30:01,856 --> 00:30:08,006
I really like your point about cutting across chapters, being major revisions, minor revisions.
248
00:30:08,006 --> 00:30:14,846
And my impression is that minor revisions should be contained, containable,
249
00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:22,196
so we can go anywhere from typos to adding sections of a chapter, perhaps even sections to chapters.
250
00:30:22,196 --> 00:30:29,576
But anything that requires changing the story line, as I put it, is usually goes under, Major.
251
00:30:29,576 --> 00:30:41,876
I mean, keep in mind, Edward, that sometimes an external and internal will decide to give the student major revisions in part,
252
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:49,016
in part to help them out and give them enough time to make those revisions.
253
00:30:49,016 --> 00:30:56,396
So remember, the difference between minor and major is not just about quality, if you like the thesis,
254
00:30:56,396 --> 00:31:04,586
but it's also about the amount of time that the internal and external deemed to be necessary to make the changes.
255
00:31:04,586 --> 00:31:09,476
And in order to determine that, they often ask student.
256
00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:13,796
What their needs are and what they're doing and how much time they need.
257
00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:20,096
Sometimes you might have a student that's working full time, for instance, they've had to get a job and therefore,
258
00:31:20,096 --> 00:31:26,006
the internal and external might make a decision partly about whether it's minor or a major,
259
00:31:26,006 --> 00:31:30,846
partly in terms of the amount of time that they think the student needs.
260
00:31:30,846 --> 00:31:40,966
So it's a strategic decision as well. And the last question I want to ask was a specific one about the the role of the chair, if that's OK.
261
00:31:40,966 --> 00:31:47,466
So. Increasingly at Exeter, and certainly in light of coronavirus,
262
00:31:47,466 --> 00:31:58,206
we're seeing a lot of PhDs being examined with this mysterious extra person on the panel who shouldn't and
263
00:31:58,206 --> 00:32:02,946
arguably make a huge amount of difference to the outcomes of either but whose role is very important.
264
00:32:02,946 --> 00:32:11,616
So could I ask you to say a bit more about that role, this non examining independent chair position, which I understand you've done yourself?
265
00:32:11,616 --> 00:32:23,916
Yes, although I have to say that I would I would question the idea that the independent chair plays any role in determining the outcome of viva,
266
00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:28,986
and that's not their role. The role of the of the independent chair,
267
00:32:28,986 --> 00:32:38,436
the non examining that's the key non examining independent chair is simply to to assess that you
268
00:32:38,436 --> 00:32:46,626
like and to monitor the viva and make sure that it is conducted according to the regulations.
269
00:32:46,626 --> 00:32:53,526
So they will not have read the thesis, they will have no view on on the content of it.
270
00:32:53,526 --> 00:32:58,236
They will have not be asked for their view on the outcome.
271
00:32:58,236 --> 00:33:08,616
The only thing that they are responsible for is the conduct of the viva itself and that it is conducted according to the rules.
272
00:33:08,616 --> 00:33:10,986
Can I ask a related question to that?
273
00:33:10,986 --> 00:33:19,326
This is something I've always wondered myself what once the candidate is asked to step out of the room or in my case,
274
00:33:19,326 --> 00:33:26,826
to temporarily leave the team's meeting as it was, because I had, of course, virtual viva
275
00:33:26,826 --> 00:33:29,916
What kind of things are actually said between the examiners?
276
00:33:29,916 --> 00:33:38,226
This is just a personal question I've always wondered this is it kind of oh few or is it kind of a OK or does it very much depend on the viva?
277
00:33:38,226 --> 00:33:45,876
It very much depends on the viva. And sometimes there is an overview, especially if the student is either very nervous,
278
00:33:45,876 --> 00:33:52,836
in which case the conversation is stilted and that's felt by all concerned or in the case where
279
00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:58,626
a student can be very defensive or just show no understanding of the weaknesses of the case.
280
00:33:58,626 --> 00:34:03,726
In all three cases or scenarios, vivas can be painful.
281
00:34:03,726 --> 00:34:11,586
And so the supervisors sorry, not the supervisor, the internal and external can sometimes be relieved at the end.
282
00:34:11,586 --> 00:34:16,266
Usually, however, and most of the Vivas I've done, it's very rare that that happens.
283
00:34:16,266 --> 00:34:22,656
By the way, most of the five years I've done the the internal and external look at each other
284
00:34:22,656 --> 00:34:26,946
and most of the time we've enjoyed the conversation we've had with the student.
285
00:34:26,946 --> 00:34:37,836
And in my experience anyway, is often and attempt to be as generous with the students as possible, generous and supportive of the student.
286
00:34:37,836 --> 00:34:44,616
And I think sometimes there's a misunderstanding that the job of the internal is to defend the students.
287
00:34:44,616 --> 00:34:50,496
The job of the external is to be the critical interrogator.
288
00:34:50,496 --> 00:34:53,016
In my experience, that's not the case.
289
00:34:53,016 --> 00:35:00,576
In my experience, the world of the internal is really only to make sure again, especially if there's no independent chair,
290
00:35:00,576 --> 00:35:07,386
that the Viva has been conducted in a way that is consistent with the regulations.
291
00:35:07,386 --> 00:35:13,326
Apart from that, both the internal and the external are expected to ask tough questions of the students.
292
00:35:13,326 --> 00:35:21,486
And it's not the role of the internal so-called defend the student unless unless they feel that the viva is taking
293
00:35:21,486 --> 00:35:27,216
an uncomfortable turn and that the external is being overly critical or destructive in their manner.
294
00:35:27,216 --> 00:35:31,386
But apart from that, both internal and external have the same role.
295
00:35:31,386 --> 00:35:39,486
In other words, they're there to assess the scholarship of the student and to determine whether it meets the required standards.
296
00:35:39,486 --> 00:35:44,706
What's your opinion on Mock Vivas? Do you tend to encourage your as a supervisor,
297
00:35:44,706 --> 00:35:51,426
your your students to have them always is a mock or something that you're kind of doing all through your PhD?
298
00:35:51,426 --> 00:35:54,636
I would actually encourage students to go through Mock Vivas
299
00:35:54,636 --> 00:36:05,286
I think it's good practise if for no other reason that it might help students manage their nerves.
300
00:36:05,286 --> 00:36:09,996
So if they performed the viva already with their supervisor perhaps and a friend.
301
00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:19,386
So I did it once with a colleague of mine, we both sat and pretended to be the internal and external and put the student through a grilling.
302
00:36:19,386 --> 00:36:27,216
And I think it worked very well. And hopefully it helped the student prepare for the viva because they were less nervous
303
00:36:27,216 --> 00:36:37,266
when they went in and they understood the kinds of questions they would be asked. So I think mock vivas are are are to be encouraged.
304
00:36:37,266 --> 00:36:41,376
Thanks again to Bice for that really illuminating conversation and discussion,
305
00:36:41,376 --> 00:36:46,206
which I'm sure will be very useful to those of us preparing for Vivas at the moment.
306
00:36:46,206 --> 00:36:54,696
Thank you so much to Edward and Bice for such an illuminating and supportive discussion.
307
00:36:54,696 --> 00:37:01,386
Our next episode will be the last one in this mini series on the Viva guest hosted by Edward
308
00:37:01,386 --> 00:37:07,776
In that episode, he'll be talking to one of his own Viva examiners. And that's it for this episode.
309
00:37:07,776 --> 00:37:10,896
Don't forget to like rate and subscribe and join me.
310
00:37:10,896 --> 00:37:37,505
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development and everything in between.
Thursday May 13, 2021
Preparing for your (STEMM) Viva
Thursday May 13, 2021
Thursday May 13, 2021
In this episode, guest host Dr. Edward Mills talks to Professor Jon Blount, Director of Postgraduate Researcher in the College of Life and Environmental Sciences about preparing for your viva in STEMM subjects.
A couple of claifications on rules and regulations at Exeter:
- Staff members doing a research degree viva will need two external examiners, not two internal examiners
- It is not possible to 'fail' your first viva - the outcomes are no corrections, minor corrections, major corrections and resubmission
- For minor corrections, you have 3 months to complete the revisions not two
This is the first in a new series of podcasts on the viva, being developed as part of a suite of online resources by Edward for the University of Exeter Doctoral College.
Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Podcast transcript
1
00:00:09,260 --> 00:00:15,880
Hello and welcome, R, D And in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece.
2
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:32,260
And every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.
3
00:00:32,260 --> 00:00:36,200
And welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.
4
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:44,580
This episode comes to you a little late due to an incident with a microphone cable that sadly is no more.
5
00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:51,170
But I'm really delighted for the first time to bring you guest host for R, D and the In Betweens.
6
00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:55,880
So this week, Dr. Edward Mills, who has been a frequent guest on the podcast,
7
00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:02,960
is taking over and bringing us an episode all about preparing for your viiva
8
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,930
So Edward is working with me to develop some online resources and training about preparing for your viva
9
00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:16,550
and that includes a series of podcasts with different academics and examiners and researchers all about the process.
10
00:01:16,550 --> 00:01:23,480
So this is the first of a new series. And over to you, Edward.
11
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,050
Hello. As Kelly said in her intro, my name is Edward.
12
00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:33,890
I am a postdoc in Modern languages. And this episode of R, D and The In Betweens comes to you courtesy of Jon Blount
13
00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:42,080
director of Postgraduate Researchers in CLES, the College of Life Environmental Sciences here at the University of Exeter.
14
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:48,110
It's part of a series of interviews that I'm doing with DPGRs and examiners from around the
15
00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:54,260
university as part of the preparation for a new suite of resources on preparing for your viva.
16
00:01:54,260 --> 00:02:03,110
And Jon has very kindly agreed that we can use the long form version of our discussion as part of this podcast series.
17
00:02:03,110 --> 00:02:09,470
So I started by asking, Jonn, as you can probably imagine, whether he'd be willing to introduce himself.
18
00:02:09,470 --> 00:02:13,730
Yeah, sure. So I'm I'm Jon Blount. As you said, I'm a professor of animal physiology.
19
00:02:13,730 --> 00:02:17,720
So my sort of parent discipline is bio sciences.
20
00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:25,220
But in CLES, I oversee, in addition to bio sciences, geography, sport and health sciences and psychology as well, including clinical psychology.
21
00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:29,090
So it's quite a diverse range of subject areas and quite large college.
22
00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:34,160
We've got about five hundred and seventy five students, something of that in that order.
23
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,310
You mentioned the diverse college that you have in CLES
24
00:02:37,310 --> 00:02:46,550
And I was really interested to hear about this during the preinterview chat that we had in that you've got researchers from
25
00:02:46,550 --> 00:02:52,190
areas that say human geography who might be quite close to some of the work that we do in humanities and social sciences.
26
00:02:52,190 --> 00:02:59,670
Then you also have, of course, a lot of researchers who are nearer towards the what you might call the hard sciences and in CLES
27
00:02:59,670 --> 00:03:01,370
Is that right? That's right. Yeah.
28
00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:09,140
I mean, most of most of the theses that are examined in this college would be, I guess, what you would call STEM related.
29
00:03:09,140 --> 00:03:13,730
But as you say, towards the sort of human geography and of the geography spectrum,
30
00:03:13,730 --> 00:03:20,150
we do see PhDs that can be examined, including elements of performing arts, for example.
31
00:03:20,150 --> 00:03:25,760
So, you know, a very diverse range of presentations. Yes.
32
00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:34,940
And certainly we're hoping that the material in this discussion that will be useful to people then has people in STEM and everything in between.
33
00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:37,370
I was wondering if we could start just with me,
34
00:03:37,370 --> 00:03:47,960
asking when you tend to advise these students to start thinking about the viva as a moment in their course of study.
35
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:55,100
I think this is a conversation that will naturally emerge in the final you know, the final year, let's say.
36
00:03:55,100 --> 00:04:01,640
It should be it should be around the time when you're getting deep into writing up and thinking about the
37
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,740
kind of literature that you should be citing to properly represent the field of work that you're in.
38
00:04:06,740 --> 00:04:13,400
I mean, the choice of examiners will be strongly informed by the experience of your supervisory team.
39
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:19,700
And I think it's important. You know, it's usually the case that students are aware of who their examiners are going to be.
40
00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:26,120
At some point during the latter months when they're finishing up the up stage and end it.
41
00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,330
And it's useful at that stage to kind of, you know,
42
00:04:29,330 --> 00:04:36,070
your audience really to think about who's going to be reading this and what literature they are going to be familiar with.
43
00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:40,040
You know, making sure that you properly represent their own research,
44
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:46,730
perhaps not just the broader field of literature that they will be most knowledgeable about.
45
00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:53,120
So as a sort of follow up to that, then just to sort of try and demystify the process of it.
46
00:04:53,120 --> 00:05:01,580
Could I ask what you as an examiner will do when you're given a thesis or
47
00:05:01,580 --> 00:05:08,330
approached by one of the supervisors first to ask if it's an area you'd be willing to examine.
48
00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:09,540
Yeah.
49
00:05:09,540 --> 00:05:19,200
Your typically you'd be approached by the primary supervisor who would tell you roughly what the subject area is and what how many chapters there are,
50
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,220
roughly how long the thesis says and what kind of format it's in and so on.
51
00:05:23,220 --> 00:05:30,330
And then you decide, you know, whether you're available and able to do it within the timescale that they will identify for.
52
00:05:30,330 --> 00:05:34,770
You know, they'll say to you, look, the candidates looking to submit around so and so and so we you know,
53
00:05:34,770 --> 00:05:38,390
we'd really like to have this done within two or three months of that date. Is that possible?
54
00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:47,070
And you agree or you decline depending on what what you know, what you've got on your plate at the time and so on when the thesis arrives to you,
55
00:05:47,070 --> 00:05:53,880
it will, of course, come electronically and it should also arrive as hard copy.
56
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:59,160
If it doesn't, most examiners will request that because it's a lot easier to read a large document,
57
00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,810
as we all know, you know, in hard copy than on screen.
58
00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:11,040
And most examiners will have a quick flick through the thing when it arrives and just get a sense of the scale of the task ahead of them.
59
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:17,690
You know, how much time do they feel that they will need to set aside to read this ahead of the thev viva?
60
00:06:17,690 --> 00:06:25,560
Well, if there is a viva. And then usually, you know what most people will do because we've all got a lot of things going on.
61
00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:37,140
It will normally be put to the side until a week or two before the date of the exam or the deadline for the submission of the report for the viva.
62
00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:46,290
And then they will they will intensively read it over a period of whatever's required, you know, two, three days as required and write the comments.
63
00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:54,030
I, I tend to go through the thesis and mark up the hard copy.
64
00:06:54,030 --> 00:06:56,520
And then after I've gone through each chapter,
65
00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:04,680
I'll then type up my notes and think about which bits of it are actually substantive and need to be discussed in a in a viva or
66
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:11,790
would need to be presented to the candidate as a something they should respond to could potentially require revision and so on.
67
00:07:11,790 --> 00:07:21,620
So in that sort of post submission pre viva period, how do you typically advise a candidate to prepare for the viva?
68
00:07:21,620 --> 00:07:26,730
OK, so after you submit, obviously, there's a great sense of elation that you've sort of crossed the line and you
69
00:07:26,730 --> 00:07:32,100
tend to put the thing in the top drawer and forget about it for a few weeks,
70
00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:38,500
and that's absolutely the right thing to do. You know, just go away and forget about it, relax and do something else.
71
00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:49,390
But when it, when you when you know the date of your viva, I feel it's very important to make sure that you read the thesis and know its contents.
72
00:07:49,390 --> 00:07:53,560
Well, you know, you you can to a greater or lesser extent,
73
00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:00,010
anticipate the kinds of questions they're going to ask about each chapter and perhaps overall
74
00:08:00,010 --> 00:08:03,920
about how the thesis hangs together as a whole and what it what is its broader significance.
75
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:11,320
So for each chapter, I would encourage candidates to just read it not immediately before the viva
76
00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,430
I'm not talking about the day before. I'm talking about maybe a week or two before.
77
00:08:15,430 --> 00:08:20,860
Read the chapter. Make sure you can or are clear in your own mind.
78
00:08:20,860 --> 00:08:26,710
What was the overall aim or question that we were setting out to address here?
79
00:08:26,710 --> 00:08:31,330
What were the what were the major questions and hypotheses that we approach?
80
00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:39,800
What were the major findings? And how do these findings change the way we think about the original question that we set out to answer at the outset?
81
00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:45,520
You know, you can you can if you can answer those sorts of questions in relation to each chapter,
82
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:50,710
you're going to do absolutely fine, because you're almost certainly going to be asked to explain.
83
00:08:50,710 --> 00:08:55,990
What did you do? Why did you do it? What did you find out?
84
00:08:55,990 --> 00:09:02,980
You want to be all you want to almost be able to explain the purpose or the outcome of each chapter,
85
00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:10,300
as if you were writing a lay summary or or as if you were, you know, explaining to a non-specialist in the kitchen a party.
86
00:09:10,300 --> 00:09:14,540
You know what? Why what do you do? Why did you do that? What who cares?
87
00:09:14,540 --> 00:09:23,080
What did you find out? And in a conversational kind of way, you want to give a fairly pithy answer to those sorts of questions,
88
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:32,660
because you're almost certainly going to be asked. And that's really I think preparation is the key.
89
00:09:32,660 --> 00:09:40,220
Think about potential weaknesses. It's not your role to hide any potential weaknesses that you're aware of.
90
00:09:40,220 --> 00:09:50,180
It's okay to be open and talk about them, too. The examiner's main job is, as I said before, is to make sure that you wrote the thesis.
91
00:09:50,180 --> 00:09:55,130
So just make sure that you you do remember its content.
92
00:09:55,130 --> 00:09:59,140
Don't put it to one side and then literally don't look at it again for three months and
93
00:09:59,140 --> 00:10:04,050
then go into the room because you're gonna be asked detailed questions about his content.
94
00:10:04,050 --> 00:10:09,050
And you mentioned this sort of writing of reports that takes place before the viva.
95
00:10:09,050 --> 00:10:12,800
Could you say a bit more about that and about the role of different examiners?
96
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:22,040
Because, of course, there will be more than one. Yeah, there'll be an external examiner and one or more internal examiners.
97
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:29,510
If, for example, a member of staff themselves went for a PhD, if they didn't have a PhD already, they might do a PhD as
98
00:10:29,510 --> 00:10:33,860
part of their work for Exeter. They would then require two internal examiners.
99
00:10:33,860 --> 00:10:40,070
But, you know, there there are sort of process related things like that that might determine how many people are in the room.
100
00:10:40,070 --> 00:10:46,400
But, you know, there's going to be an internal examiner. At least one of those is going to be one external examiner potentially two external examiners.
101
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:54,290
If the thesis covers a very broad range of expertise, is that requires a bit more inputs to examine.
102
00:10:54,290 --> 00:10:58,550
And there might be a non examining independent chair whose role is just to oversee proceedings.
103
00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:03,320
They don't they don't read the thesis and they won't contributes the conversation
104
00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,340
other than to chip in and sort of bring things back on course if they feel that,
105
00:11:07,340 --> 00:11:13,370
you know, you've overrun the time that's available or something like that. And I think that's actually our requirement, isn't it?
106
00:11:13,370 --> 00:11:19,910
With the new virtual Vivas in the age of COVID, it is a requirement of the online virtual Vivas.
107
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:26,990
It's not a requirement, typically, unless there's something like, you know, one of the examiners has not examined at the level of the award before.
108
00:11:26,990 --> 00:11:31,800
It might require a non-examiningchair to be present just to oversee, oversee proceedings.
109
00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,480
As I say, their role is just to make sure that the regulations are followed really,
110
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:41,140
and that the candidate has a fair crack, the whip to defend their thesis, as we say.
111
00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:42,800
And obviously the first step, I imagine,
112
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:50,870
is defending the thesis comes in the form of the examiners producing these reports on what you as a candidate have written.
113
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:54,920
Could you say a bit more about what goes into these reports at all?
114
00:11:54,920 --> 00:12:02,540
Yes. So that the preliminary reports are written independently by the each individual examiner.
115
00:12:02,540 --> 00:12:12,080
And they will give an abridged version of their overall comments that they've already written up in note form or in longhand.
116
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,470
You know, they would just give a sort of a sense of where they of
117
00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:19,550
what they feel the likely outcome will be on the basis of the thesis that they've read.
118
00:12:19,550 --> 00:12:30,980
They will give a tentative recommendation at the end. I think this is I think this is worthy of the award of PhD
119
00:12:30,980 --> 00:12:35,390
It's subject to perhaps some revisions in the areas that I've outlined above.
120
00:12:35,390 --> 00:12:41,540
That's the kind of the way that that report typically. And and then then then examiners share those reports with each other.
121
00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:47,570
Usually the day before the exam, just so they're aware of the gist of what each other's feelings are.
122
00:12:47,570 --> 00:12:55,490
It's useful to have that for context. And then but you wouldn't modify those reports at that stage, even if you identified differences in your view.
123
00:12:55,490 --> 00:12:58,700
So that's that's quite normal.
124
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:08,450
But then on that, you know, after the after the viva has taken place, the examiners would then get together virtually.
125
00:13:08,450 --> 00:13:14,990
In the current circumstances or physically, they would get together a room and they would draw up a report,
126
00:13:14,990 --> 00:13:18,710
a joint report where they make their recommendation.
127
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:26,360
This should be awarded, you know, subject to revisions or whatever the recommendation is, though, they'll state, what their recommendation is.
128
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,380
And then if there are revisions required, they'll list them. That's that's the function of the final report.
129
00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:40,580
The period, of course, when the examiners are doing this before the viva itself starts is one of high tension for the student candidate.
130
00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:53,140
I remember it myself, very well, what advice do you tend to give to PGR is going into the viva about nerves and how to handle them?
131
00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:54,800
I think I think the first thing to say is, you know,
132
00:13:54,800 --> 00:14:00,030
try not to be nervous because you know more about this thing than anyone else does almost certainly.
133
00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:06,570
And that the primary function of the examiners is just to make sure to verify that you indeed wrote this thing yourself.
134
00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:10,850
You know, this is an independent, independent piece of research. And you are the author. That's their primary function.
135
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:14,330
So, you know, of course, that is almost invariably going to be the case.
136
00:14:14,330 --> 00:14:20,180
So, you know, you should go into this feeling that you're in control.
137
00:14:20,180 --> 00:14:24,600
You know, to us to a greater or lesser extent, that you know more about this than anyone else.
138
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:31,760
So you shouldn't. Although it's almost impossible. Not to become anxious ahead of a major life event like this.
139
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,850
The examiners are going to want you to do well. And I think it's important that, you know,
140
00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:42,970
that the candidates recognise that good examiners will set you at ease when you walk into the room just by
141
00:14:42,970 --> 00:14:51,210
asking you some rather banal questions about what you've been up to since you submitted the thing or you know,
142
00:14:51,210 --> 00:15:00,190
that just conversation starts ready to break the ice. They might even give you a sense of the likely outcome before that final proper begins.
143
00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:04,110
So everybody wants you to do well.
144
00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:11,290
And in an ideal world, you will be put at ease relatively quickly after the thing starts.
145
00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:18,520
And that's something that's come up a lot, actually, in the discussions I've had with examiners and DPGRs across across colleges that
146
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:24,130
examiners will often give an indication early on over the way the wind is blowing.
147
00:15:24,130 --> 00:15:24,430
Obviously,
148
00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:32,020
that might not always be the case and you might not get this sort of early indication of whether you're going to pass with major corrections,
149
00:15:32,020 --> 00:15:35,440
minor corrections, no corrections or so on if you don't get that.
150
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,470
Is that necessarily a bad thing from the outset of either place?
151
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:47,500
So it's sometimes quite difficult to give a precise indication because it may not be cut and dry whether they will want you to make revisions or not.
152
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:54,520
You know, some of the some of the items that they've, some of the things they've itemised in the provisional list of corrections that
153
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,750
they they want to discuss with you will end up just being put to one side,
154
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:03,550
having had a discussion. It's the misunderstandings cleared up and it doesn't actually require revision.
155
00:16:03,550 --> 00:16:13,150
So I think I wouldn't be at all concerned if you're not given an indication of the likely outcome is is quite often
156
00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:20,680
difficult to be definitive before you've actually heard the candidate speak and wants to do the questions in.
157
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:27,820
So once we're into the meat of the viva, if you like, past the initial introductions, those those early questions.
158
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:34,270
Is there anything that you as an examiner like to see that gives you confidence in the
159
00:16:34,270 --> 00:16:38,380
candidate that you examine in confidence that the candidate knows what they're doing,
160
00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:42,400
knows what they're talking about? I mean, you're you know, you're an examiner.
161
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,050
You're looking for a thesis, a thesis that's well, well presented and has been proofs
162
00:16:47,050 --> 00:16:49,210
Read
163
00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:59,230
It makes the task of examining so much more enjoyable if you feel that the candidate has taken care over the presentation and then the proofreading,
164
00:16:59,230 --> 00:17:01,660
you know, there's really no excuse for it to be littered with typos.
165
00:17:01,660 --> 00:17:08,470
And it sets the tone in the wrong direction from the outset because you're creating a
166
00:17:08,470 --> 00:17:13,660
great deal more work for the examiners if you haven't had time or bothered to do that,
167
00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:20,800
work yourself. You know, similarly, you want to see a good you want to be easy to navigate.
168
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:28,350
So you want see a good context content section so you can find all the different bits easily and cross-reference things when you need to.
169
00:17:28,350 --> 00:17:33,940
You're to make sure that the literature is appropriately cited. We've touched on that already.
170
00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:40,450
And the other thing I suppose to say here is I think it's important to make sure
171
00:17:40,450 --> 00:17:44,950
that you deal with all all the revisions that you're given at the end of it.
172
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:49,360
You know that the final report that you receive at the end of viva will
173
00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:54,760
potentially have a list of things that the examiners want you to correct or amend.
174
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:59,590
And, you know, occasionally candidates don't agree with all of those things.
175
00:17:59,590 --> 00:18:03,080
And and they might then choose to sort of argue the point.
176
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:11,890
And I would strongly advise against that, because it doesn't it just doesn't end well for the candidate, because it just draws out the process.
177
00:18:11,890 --> 00:18:19,410
And basically the examiners are highly unlikely to. To back down on an amendment that they've asked for.
178
00:18:19,410 --> 00:18:28,890
So that's a really interesting point, Just to check are you referring specifically to amendments that are proposed post Viva or to the kind of
179
00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:35,280
discussions that you'd have in the propositions made by the examiners during the viva itself?
180
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,180
No. No,
181
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:44,220
During the discussion, I mean, it's absolutely fine to sort of argue, argue the point and perhaps not argue, but of robust discussion about something.
182
00:18:44,220 --> 00:18:50,160
If if the examiners ask you to change the way some piece of statistical analysis is done or something and you don't agree,
183
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:56,260
then it's absolutely your prerogative to figure out why you feel that they're wrong and they may well be wrong.
184
00:18:56,260 --> 00:19:00,000
I mean, that could be an example of a potential amendment that they then just scrub
185
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,810
out off the list because they realise that they misunderstood or something.
186
00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:10,800
But at the end of the process, if there are amendments or corrections requested, it will come in the form of a list.
187
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,810
And, you know, you've basically just got to do what you've been asked to do at that stage.
188
00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:21,480
There's no point arguing candidates occasionally will feel that they want to do that.
189
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,790
But it's a pointless exercise would be my advice.
190
00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:29,010
Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that.
191
00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:38,620
Actually, I think that resonates with a lot of what people have heard in HASS subjects as well about the need to engage in this robust discussion,
192
00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:44,700
during the viva itsel on that topic, actually, of a sort of robust discussion.
193
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:52,130
How do you tend to encourage candidates to reach that stage?
194
00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:59,060
Well, one thing that I've heard before from a lot of people is the value of not getting too defensive in the viva
195
00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:08,130
Yes. I think, you know, you got a break. You got to recognise that. You know, exams will vary and some examiners are just human beings,
196
00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:14,810
right so they will have different demeanours and ways of approaching things and different manners of asking questions.
197
00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:21,930
But as a candidate, whatever you're presented with, you've just got to stay cool and listen to the question carefully.
198
00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:26,190
And, you know, above all, don't don't don't argue.
199
00:20:26,190 --> 00:20:32,580
Just take your time. Listen to it. Ask. Ask for a clarification if you don't understand the question properly.
200
00:20:32,580 --> 00:20:37,200
Once you do understand what they're getting out, you know, whatever it is.
201
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:47,100
Just give a calm answer. This is the best advice really is absolutely no point folding your arms and arguing.
202
00:20:47,100 --> 00:20:51,930
So when you say don't argue. It sounds like a kind of demeanour thing.
203
00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:55,890
Almost. Don't don't snap back. Just keep your cool. If that makes sense.
204
00:20:55,890 --> 00:21:03,000
Very often in in STEM subject areas that, you know, there will be multiple ways of doing something.
205
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:07,770
And the examiners may have their own particular preference of how something should be done.
206
00:21:07,770 --> 00:21:09,870
And they may say to you, I think you should do it like this.
207
00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:20,280
And it say it's absolutely fine to try to reason with the examiner why you feel the way you've done it is it is an alternative or adequate approach to.
208
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:25,500
And, you know, a good examiner, a good board of examiners would accept that they'd listen to and accept that.
209
00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,860
And actually, that will sort of bolster their confidence that you are in command of this.
210
00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:32,940
And as I said, it is your PhD. And you know more about this to anyone else.
211
00:21:32,940 --> 00:21:37,950
And in many cases, examiners will simply say, that's absolutely fine.
212
00:21:37,950 --> 00:21:44,400
And drop the point. You will occasionally get situations where examiner is absolutely adamant that they want something done in a particular way.
213
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:51,990
And you very strongly disagree. And that's the sort of bit where the internal examiners role really comes to the fore there,
214
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:59,370
because they ought to be experienced enough to, you know, recognise a point when, you know, we've exhausted this.
215
00:21:59,370 --> 00:22:05,130
Now let's move on. And they will potentially intervene and say, I think we think we've covered this now.
216
00:22:05,130 --> 00:22:06,120
We'll move on at the end.
217
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:12,660
And then, you know, yet when you see the report, the and you'll find out what the decision has been as to what they want you to do.
218
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:19,830
But that's the point at which you there's no point arguing, just jumping back slightly, if that's okay.
219
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:25,350
One thing that you mentioned earlier was the importance of signposting and there being a clear structure throughout the thesis.
220
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:32,820
And another thing that came out of our discussion before I hit the big red record button was this notion of the results chapter,
221
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:42,240
which sounds in some ways that's quite a specific STEM thing for listeners who are a maybe HASS subjects.
222
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:50,790
Would you be able to say a little bit more about what you mean by that and how that might apply more generally, this notion of results chapter?
223
00:22:50,790 --> 00:22:57,060
So the typical structure of a PhDthesis in STEM would be an introductory chapter,
224
00:22:57,060 --> 00:23:04,230
which might be a sort of a literature review type chapter that sets the research questions in the context of the existing
225
00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:11,550
literature and identifies the gaps in knowledge that you're going to address that may or may not be publishable units,
226
00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:17,910
if you like, in its own right. It might end up being a review article in in in in the STEM literature,
227
00:23:17,910 --> 00:23:25,230
or it might just serve the purpose of being part of the thesis that sort of bookends the results chapters which are in the middle.
228
00:23:25,230 --> 00:23:32,370
So after your introductory general introduction, you would typically then have a series of, you know, what we call results chapters.
229
00:23:32,370 --> 00:23:38,730
So each of those will have its own introduction methods, results, discussion, reference list and so on.
230
00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:49,740
They may or may not have been submitted for publication, as you know, individual publishable units at the point by which you have the viva.
231
00:23:49,740 --> 00:23:51,060
If they have been published,
232
00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:57,630
it's very often the case that you'll just have an interesting chat about the contents of it and what we found out about it.
233
00:23:57,630 --> 00:24:02,100
You know, what was the main question? How did you address it? What were the main findings?
234
00:24:02,100 --> 00:24:07,380
How does this change the way we view the world? You know, but they won't nit pick about details.
235
00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:11,820
And why did you do your analysis in this way? Did you think about doing in a different way?
236
00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:16,460
Because it's already been subject to peer review and and it's published.
237
00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:22,470
You know, what's the point of changing a part of a thesis that's already in the public domain as a published article?
238
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:27,900
So most examiners won't ask you to revise published chapters.
239
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,620
It can happen, but it's it's relatively unusual.
240
00:24:31,620 --> 00:24:37,180
They're more likely to spend more time talking about the aspects of the thesis which are potentially publishable,
241
00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:41,460
i.e., the results chapters which have not yet been submitted for peer review.
242
00:24:41,460 --> 00:24:46,690
So they'll be doing the job of external peer review is at that stage.
243
00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:54,540
And actually, that conversation that happens in the Viva is really, really helpful for you for when you come to write those papers up for publication,
244
00:24:54,540 --> 00:25:00,480
submit them, because hopefully with all of that expert opinion you've already had about this piece of work,
245
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,920
you'll have covered many of the issues that the.
246
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:11,110
The reviewers might might have picked up and how helpful is it, at least in in STEM specifically to compartmentalise in this way?
247
00:25:11,110 --> 00:25:17,610
I mean, I'm assuming most reviewers will take it in a relatively chapter by chapter like fashion.
248
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:23,100
They will actually, in this subject it's actually the most common format for these conversations will be to let's start with
249
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:30,060
chapter one and then two and three and so on you can you can approach this and examine other ways entirely up to you,
250
00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:35,940
how you approach it. But with the agreement of all the examiners, you could go it in a very much wider way.
251
00:25:35,940 --> 00:25:40,050
And just and just start with the really broad questions about, you know, what have we learnt?
252
00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:46,530
How does this how does this how does the findings of your thesis change the way we think about the original questions you set out?
253
00:25:46,530 --> 00:25:53,400
And then just sort of pick up on individual bits of it as you as you sort of navigate through that conversation.
254
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:59,970
And that might be the more appropriate way to do it. If, for example, as exceptionally to be fair, but if, for example,
255
00:25:59,970 --> 00:26:07,110
the candidate had already published all of their results, chapters in the peer reviewed scientific literature,
256
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:15,930
then it might be appropriate to have a slightly different style of conversation in the viva, where you just go at it from a much broader perspective.
257
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:20,010
I was going to ask actually on that subjects, would you recommend, therefore,
258
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:30,180
at least in STEMM subject that candidates try and sort of publish as much as possible prior to their PhD just to give themselves that insurance?
259
00:26:30,180 --> 00:26:34,610
I wouldn't say recommend because it's so project specific. You know, some it's some projects.
260
00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:38,760
The results only come towards the end. It's just a necessary part of it.
261
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:44,460
You know, if you're working on a longitudinal study of a mammal in the wild or something,
262
00:26:44,460 --> 00:26:49,920
you might only get all of your data in the final year and so on. So it's almost impossible to publish as you go.
263
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:56,160
But, you know, in in this subject area, we are we're all obsessed, if you like,
264
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,590
in our careers are judged on the numbers and quality of the publications that we produce.
265
00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:09,420
And so, you know, all all supervisors will be encouraging you to look for opportunities to publish as you go.
266
00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:14,510
Based on that, then, would publication make you untouchable in a viva on a given chapter,
267
00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:18,540
or is that, as I suspect, something of an oversimplification?
268
00:27:18,540 --> 00:27:25,290
It's an oversimplification, but, you know, the role of the examiners is to make sure you have been examined.
269
00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:31,350
You know, it'd be remiss of them just to have a laid back conversation if you just because you've published everything,
270
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:37,710
they would be looking to test you on your thoughts about what are the most significant parts of what you've found.
271
00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:42,990
And, you know, why should we care about what you've found and how could this apply to fields, you know,
272
00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:48,240
outside of your immediate gaze and subject area and so on, mean they will as experienced academics,
273
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,360
they will want to make you feel like you've had an exam,
274
00:27:51,360 --> 00:28:02,510
although a constructive and enjoyable conversation that just for the final part of our conversation, I was wondering if we could look at little bit more.
275
00:28:02,510 --> 00:28:07,950
Are some of the outcomes. We've briefly touched on these already.
276
00:28:07,950 --> 00:28:10,230
But just to begin with the basic points.
277
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:17,910
Am I right in thinking that the standard outcomes od pass with no corrections, with minor corrections, major corrections,
278
00:28:17,910 --> 00:28:27,370
that sort of range of outcomes and of course, other ones alongside that are broadly consistent in STEM subjects as well as in HASS?
279
00:28:27,370 --> 00:28:29,100
The potential outcomes are the same.
280
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:36,150
And at the end of the viva of the examiners will send you out of the room, you know, physically or figuratively speaking,
281
00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:40,770
if it was a virtual viva and they'll have a conversation about what their recommendations are going to be,
282
00:28:40,770 --> 00:28:44,700
then they'll call you back in and they'll tell you verbally what the recommendation is.
283
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:50,700
Of course, if it's no corrections, it's just a case of, you know, slapping each other on the back and wishing you well.
284
00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:54,960
If it's if the recommendation is for major or minor corrections,
285
00:28:54,960 --> 00:29:02,400
then they'll explain to you why they feel that's justified and what you're required to do for the award.
286
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:09,020
And then you will be sent the written up report once they've conferred and actually got it down in writing.
287
00:29:09,020 --> 00:29:17,100
You will be sent that within a few days usually, and you'll be given a period of time in which you need to turn it around and resubmit it.
288
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:21,300
And then once the revisions are received back at the university administrative hub,
289
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:29,900
they will be sent to the internal examiners whose role is just to go through and check that you've done all that you were asked to do.
290
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:35,160
And if there's any uncertainty in their mind about that, they will confer with the external examiner.
291
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,600
But in most cases, the external examiner isn't consulted at that point.
292
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:47,970
And it the case in sciences as it is in, has subjects that you're not allowed to contact your examiners for further feedback.
293
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:54,060
No, it's really important you don't contact the examiners. It compromises their position.
294
00:29:54,060 --> 00:29:57,420
They won't welcome the approach and it and it contravenes our rules.
295
00:29:57,420 --> 00:30:04,310
And regs so potentially would render the examination invalid and you'd have to do it again.
296
00:30:04,310 --> 00:30:10,170
There is that the option of going through your supervisor. But that can only happen once.
297
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:15,090
As I understand it. Yeah. I don't know about the frequency, whether it once or whatever.
298
00:30:15,090 --> 00:30:22,270
It's some it. It's not generally considered to be a good idea for any one to confer with the examiners would be my advice.
299
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:27,520
You can go back to the internal examiner would be that the supervisor could approach the
300
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,880
internal examiner and ask for clarification about the wording of something that would be okay.
301
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:39,490
Yeah. I think that would be fine once. And what is the distribution curve, if that's the right term?
302
00:30:39,490 --> 00:30:46,330
Look like what percentage of candidates will get no minor major correction.
303
00:30:46,330 --> 00:30:52,870
So in our college, minor corrections is the most common outcome.
304
00:30:52,870 --> 00:31:00,160
Something like 80 percent of submitted theses will get minor corrections, no corrections,
305
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:12,070
about 10 percent major corrections or other potential outcomes like a fail or award of a lower degree and MPhil or that sort of thing.
306
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:20,760
That would be, you know, in the single figures. And how do people tend to react to all of the different outcomes that they might achieve?
307
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,410
I went into my viva I remember hoping for minor corrections.
308
00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,930
Is that sort of the attitude to take, would you say? I think so.
309
00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:32,410
I mean, if you if you've prepared the thesis, you know,
310
00:31:32,410 --> 00:31:38,170
if you've if you've had it read by your supervisors and you've gone through rounds of revision and so on, us,
311
00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:43,570
as should be the case, then everyone should feel reasonably confident that the point that which is submitted,
312
00:31:43,570 --> 00:31:47,480
that this is going to get a pass with no no major difficulties.
313
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,830
That's why major corrections or a fail or award of a lower degree is that is a relatively rare outcome.
314
00:31:53,830 --> 00:32:00,060
Yes. Can I ask first what constitutes minor corrections as opposed to say no corrections?
315
00:32:00,060 --> 00:32:08,320
Yeah. So minor corrections is typically could just be a list of typos, you know, or very minor things.
316
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,240
Like I think you should reference this additional area of literature, which you haven't mentioned.
317
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:21,610
If that list of very minor issues becomes increasingly very long and pervasive throughout the thesis,
318
00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:28,300
then potentially that could in itself swing it towards major corrections because it would require longer than,
319
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:34,750
you know, just two months to fix sort of thing. It's it's a wholesale rewriting that could potentially constitute major corrections.
320
00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:42,370
The more common justification for the requests of major corrections is if there are aspects of the analysis,
321
00:32:42,370 --> 00:32:48,420
i.e. the data analysis in STEM that require doing again.
322
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:53,740
And that could potentially also the interpretation, because the results are not known,
323
00:32:53,740 --> 00:33:01,060
because the analysis hasn't been revised and might not require more data gathering.
324
00:33:01,060 --> 00:33:06,360
Or would it be a question for major corrections of reinterpreting the data they already have?
325
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,670
If it required more data to be collected, that would almost invariably constitute a recommendation of major corrections.
326
00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:14,980
Because you can't predict what the outcome of that would be.
327
00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:21,670
That would in fact probably be the sort of thesis that might be failed and would be, you know,
328
00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:25,880
you're asking a student to do more work, substantially more work and then try again.
329
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,610
That that would that would be major corrections. But it's typically it's typically, you know,
330
00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:35,890
examiners might not like the way that the statistical modelling has been done and they feel there's
331
00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:41,260
a reasonable chance that it could render a result that you think is statistically significant,
332
00:33:41,260 --> 00:33:46,840
being non significant, or it could be that they think there's more to this story,
333
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,530
that your analysis hasn't done it justice and, you know, you should do it in a different way.
334
00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:57,010
And that, almost by definition, is is going to result in a recommendation of major corrections.
335
00:33:57,010 --> 00:34:02,350
Presumably, the simple fact of there being more can be done in a given area would not be enough to constitute corrections, though.
336
00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:06,410
It's more to do with your individual project. Yes.
337
00:34:06,410 --> 00:34:14,770
And will more to be done to properly interpret the outcomes of the results that you've posed and the results from your studies?
338
00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:19,210
This has nothing to do with the fact that you may not have covered all the different things you might have done.
339
00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:23,110
That's not their role, but that's not their role to assess.
340
00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:29,740
And how the candidates usually respond if they come out and provide them with major corrections as opposed to, say, minor corrections.
341
00:34:29,740 --> 00:34:36,640
It's usually apparent by the end of the discussion that, you know, if if a thesis is going to get a recommendation of major corrections,
342
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,140
I think the candidate would come out of the viva pretty much expecting that outcome.
343
00:34:41,140 --> 00:34:47,680
It wouldn't typically be a surprise. They'd be told at the end. You know, we're recommending major corrections for the following reasons.
344
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:55,450
But I think because of that, the nature of the conversation that they've had for the last whatever is two and a half to four hours,
345
00:34:55,450 --> 00:35:02,380
then they would they would have a rough idea of what way the wind is blowing by the end of it.
346
00:35:02,380 --> 00:35:07,340
How do people tend to respond to that? Is it sort of disappointment, acceptance somewhere in between?
347
00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:14,260
Well, I think in acceptance. I mean, most of us, you know, we some people some people will submit a thesis where they know there are issues,
348
00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:20,890
you know, they expect there to be conversation about one ot Two aspects of that already have an inkling that they're going to be asked to do revisions.
349
00:35:20,890 --> 00:35:23,260
It's just a question of how much they're asked to do.
350
00:35:23,260 --> 00:35:29,980
And I don't think it's it's not usually a surprise some people will hand in a thesis in a wishing
351
00:35:29,980 --> 00:35:36,340
they'd had an additional two weeks to polish all the little bits which that could otherwise have done.
352
00:35:36,340 --> 00:35:38,300
And so they'll be expecting some revisions.
353
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:45,170
But it's just down to the judgement of the examiners really to decide whether it's whether they want revisions and whether it's major or minor.
354
00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:47,020
There are a couple of other points I'd make.
355
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:56,290
One is that, you know, if it were a recommendation of no corrections doesn't mean that the thesis is absolutely polished and there are no typos in it.
356
00:35:56,290 --> 00:36:02,530
It it's it's at the discretion of the examiners to make a recommendation of no corrections if they feel that it's.
357
00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:06,010
I mean, clearly, it's you know, it's really top notch work.
358
00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:14,260
They just they don't want to burden you with going through and fixing the fact that you you've missed a Full Stop on page 116.
359
00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:19,270
You know, that that's that's the sort of thing the recommendation. No correction doesn't mean there's absolutely nothing wrong.
360
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:24,850
It just means they've taken the view that you've done far away enough for the award.
361
00:36:24,850 --> 00:36:31,540
So just to conclude, could I ask what your advice would be to somebody who comes out of viva specifically with major corrections,
362
00:36:31,540 --> 00:36:36,400
whether they expected it or otherwise? Well, you know,
363
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:41,020
take a minute to digest what's being asked of you and the scale of the task of what you need to do and
364
00:36:41,020 --> 00:36:46,420
then confer with your supervisory team and come up with a plan about how you're going to tackle this.
365
00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:55,060
And the timeline of when you're going to achieve this and so on. I think it's worth the risk worth reflecting on the fact that a recommendation
366
00:36:55,060 --> 00:36:59,560
of major corrections or minor corrections or whatever the recommendation is,
367
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,550
it is down to the examiners in their judgement to come up with this view.
368
00:37:03,550 --> 00:37:09,220
But but that decision is also checked by two other senior experienced academics.
369
00:37:09,220 --> 00:37:12,370
It's checked by the college director of postgraduate research.
370
00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:23,420
So every single examiners recommendation that gets submitted back to the PGR administrative team then gets referred to the college director of PGR.
371
00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:32,590
So me in CLES and I go through and I'm specifically looking to see whether I feel the list of recommendations that they've come up with.
372
00:37:32,590 --> 00:37:39,250
Sorry, the list, the list of revisions or amendments that the examiners are requesting justifies the
373
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:44,560
recommendation that I'm looking for correspondence between the recommendation of major minor,
374
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,960
no corrections and so on. And the revisions are being asked for.
375
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:55,240
And I and I will sometimes challenge the examiners on that and occasionally I'll overturn it.
376
00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:04,460
But it's usually it's usually the case that I agree with the recommendation after the college director of PGR is checked,
377
00:38:04,460 --> 00:38:08,320
that it then gets referred to the dean of the doctoral college as well.
378
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:18,460
So to two other people have checked this. And so it should be a sort of a robust recommendation.
379
00:38:18,460 --> 00:38:23,710
Thank you very much to Jon Blount there for taking the time to discuss these questions with me.
380
00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:33,750
It's certainly been really interesting for me from a predominately humanities perspective to get a STEM view on these questions of the viva,
381
00:38:33,750 --> 00:38:38,590
and that would nevertheless hopefully be useful for people from all manner of backgrounds.
382
00:38:38,590 --> 00:38:43,060
I hope it is a useful topic to discuss.
383
00:38:43,060 --> 00:38:45,540
If you're preparing for your own viva yourself.
384
00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:53,290
And I also hope that this interview that we had has done double duty effectively as an episode of R, D and in betweens
385
00:38:53,290 --> 00:38:59,790
Thank you very much to Jon again and thanks for joining me.
386
00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:04,620
And that's it for this episode. Forget to like, rate and subscribe.
387
00:39:04,620 --> 00:39:31,531
Join me next time. We'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.