R, D and the In-betweens

Taking a break with Ellie Hassan

In the last episode of the year I talk to Sport and Health Sciences PGR Ellie Hassan about work/life balance, time management and - most importantly - taking a break.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome, R, D. And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:38,000
Hello and welcome to the final episode of R, D amd the In Betweens for 2020.

4
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:46,000
And what a year it has been for this last episode as we're going into the winter break or Christmas break.

5
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:53,000
I wanted to think about what it's like for PGRs to manage work life balance and how easy or not easy

6
00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:03,000
in some cases it is to put some time aside at these kind of marker moments in the year and rest.

7
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,000
So I'm delighted to be joined by Ellie Hassan, one of our PGRs.

8
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:15,000
So, Ellie, are you happy to introduce yourself? Yeah. So I'm Ellie I'm a PhD student in health sciences.

9
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:21,000
I'm halfway through my PhD now. So two years into a four year programme.

10
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:34,000
So two years left. And what we're going to talk about in this episode is taking a break in the broad and loose sense of the term.

11
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,000
So we're coming up to Christmas at this point in the UK.

12
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,000
And so. It's it's the time of year where we get all of these emails from senior management.

13
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000
I've gotten them to saying, enjoy your break, enjoy your break and your brain goes.

14
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,000
You must, enjoy your break. My brain's sense ongoing.

15
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:59,000
I must enjoy the break, but I must also do all of the thing

16
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:07,000
In your experience so far, how do you how have you managed the kind of the not the mandated breaks,

17
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:14,000
but the kind of more sort of the fluctuations of time, time and things like Christmas and Easter,

18
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:20,000
where the university traditionally has a closed period? Have you approached those as a PhD student?

19
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:28,000
Yeah. So I think. So I'm I'm very strict on my holiday time.

20
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000
I think especially in comparison to other people.

21
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:41,000
One of the reasons that I'm so strict on it and I'm able to approach it the way that I do is when I was doing my undergrad in my master's degree,

22
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,000
have structured holidays like that. And I also used to work part time.

23
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,000
So I basically I didn't get weekends or anything like anything any time off.

24
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,000
So when I came into my Exeter, I was like, right. This is a full time job.

25
00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:01,000
So I'm going to take weekends off. When there's holidays, there's holidays, and I'm going to try and really make the most of it.

26
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,000
And it's just really benefit me a lot. I really like being able to switch off.

27
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:14,000
And as long as I work properly and we don't mess about stuff and we can scheduling like leisure activities.

28
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:22,000
When I really ought to be working. Then I'm like, I'm really happy.

29
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000
I feel like I've earned them. So that works really well for me, for sure.

30
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:35,000
And what? And I think it shouldn't go unsaid that that kind of treating the PhD as a nine to five.

31
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,000
Taking your breaks and feeling like you've earned them, it's not a small thing.

32
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,000
It's a really brave thing to do.

33
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:53,000
And I'm always kind of really, really in awe when when people do that, because it isn't an easy thing to do within kind of academic.

34
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000
Because, I mean, is it what you see the academics and students around you doing?

35
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:06,000
Yeah, I see it mixed. So I'm really lucky. One of my supervisors is is really strict on his time.

36
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000
So, I mean, he's got a young family. I mean, he's like, okay, living and working from home and the my.

37
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:18,000
So he's very much better friends with family life.

38
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:24,000
So he's a really good example. He works pretty much eight hours most days.

39
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000
And I would see him coming into the office in the morning and then leaving a set time

40
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:34,000
every day like he's he wouldn't necessarily e-mail me out of hours or anything like that.

41
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:42,000
How important is that for you having that kind of having a supervisor that is a role model in that way and sets a very clear kind of set,

42
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000
very clear boundaries and a very clear expectation?

43
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:54,000
Yeah, it's really it's pretty important because it should be like you see a lot of other people doing almost opposite, they're in all the time.

44
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:59,000
Like I know other lecturers, other staff aren't like that.

45
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:02,000
They'll email all sorts of time. And that's what maybe that's just what their schedule is like,

46
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,000
that maybe they have a strict schedule, but it's just different hours, which is completely fine.

47
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000
But it it kind of sends a message that you have to be you have to be going all the time that this job is like your life.

48
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,000
And I ideally would like to stay in academia, but I don't want to have to do that.

49
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:24,000
So to see someone able to protect their time like that is really comforting and yeah, really nice.

50
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000
I don't feel any pressure from him to have to do otherwise.

51
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:38,000
So I think that's it's so important that that kind of role modelling of senior academics and supervisors and peers and managers,

52
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:44,000
it is such such an important precedent how they manage their time.

53
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,000
And, you know, I have colleagues that work flexibly because particularly at the moment because of childcare and working from home,

54
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,000
but also because of health reasons and and, you know, so will be emailing out of hours?

55
00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:00,000
But I see, you know, they have this wonderful thing on the bottom of their email saying, I work flexibly, I'm out of hours.

56
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000
I've got your response out of hours. This is when I'm working. Yeah, I really like that when you pop out at the bottom of the email

57
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:15,000
I really do. And. And every once in a while, I see people with wonderful out of offices saying things like.

58
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,000
I hope you get a break. Merry Christmas. And that means something quite nice about that

59
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:23,000
It is. It gives you it does. The thing that does the you know,

60
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:32,000
what your supervisor is doing by kind of modelling how to set boundaries is giving you a junior researcher permission to do the same thing.

61
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,000
So do you you know, you said you see other people around you doing the exact opposite.

62
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:41,000
You know, just does the pressure of that creep in sometimes? Does it make you sort of feel like, oh, maybe I should be?

63
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:46,000
Yeah, definitely. Especially the nature of the research.

64
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,000
Some of the research that goes on in sports health sciences means that people have to come in and say no.

65
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:56,000
At the moment it's not I don't think it's allowed, but people have to come in on the weekend or in the evening or really,

66
00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,000
really early in the morning to do stuff with like lab samples and things like that.

67
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:09,000
And have you get enough time to test their participants. So sometimes it has happened and that's completely fine.

68
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000
I don't feel any pressure in regards to that kind thing.

69
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:22,000
But, yeah, it's it's quite stressful when you see people doing loads of work and you think, I had a really nice weekend and I didn't

70
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,000
I didn't look at my laptop once But I'm really I'm I'm quite realistic.

71
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,000
I think. I mean, I know that I can't work like that. It just ends up really being really counterproductive.

72
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,000
Like, I just can't function if I do stuff like that.

73
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:45,000
So, yeah. So when I feel that pressure frequent, I'm like, well, if I did that, it wouldn't actually help alleviate the whole situation worse.

74
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,000
So yeah. And that's that's the thing that's really, really difficult because it's counterintuitive.

75
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,000
We think that the more that we sit at a desk and quote unquote work, you know,

76
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,000
the more will do and the more productive will be in the back, the better our work will be.

77
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:11,000
But actually, for so many people. It it's just the complete opposite and giving yourself permission.

78
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:17,000
To take those breaks, yeah, it's really difficult.

79
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:22,000
So. When are you stopping for a break? Then over Christmas.

80
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:28,000
I remember. Sorry. It's basically like the week. So I haven't, I think, two weeks on Christmas, maybe a little bit more.

81
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:34,000
Are you not going to look at your emails? So, yeah. So what I tend to do is just kind of I will check

82
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,000
I have the phone, but I have the notifications off. So I only checl them when I want to look at them.

83
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:45,000
I know pretty much check every every couple days maybe.

84
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:55,000
It depends if I'm expecting it to come through. When I had my kind of little holiday this summer, I was in the process of like proofing a paper.

85
00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:00,000
You know how they did that thing with I like we have to get this back within 24 hours.

86
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,000
I was checking. I was checking my phone quite a lot to see that had come through

87
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,000
But then literally I produced the paper. It was fine. And I'm on the back.

88
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:13,000
And that was all I did. So, yeah, I'll kind of check my e-mails every every couple days, every few days.

89
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:22,000
It looks it depends what's coming in, who I'm expecting to come in, but it's really just to see if there's anything that I want to follow up.

90
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:27,000
Sometimes it's it's very rarely stuff that has to be followed up, but it can be kind of helpful.

91
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:35,000
You know, you can spend like five minutes, send an email, and then that will save you half an hour in January or whatever.

92
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,000
So, yeah, maybe I should be a little bit more strict on that, but that's it makes me feel better.

93
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:50,000
Keeping a little bit on top of what's going on. I've I've had exactly the same idea of someone's literally sent me the message moments ago that I.

94
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:59,000
So I was off for a couple of weeks on sick leave and I was kind of dipping into my emails every few days just to kind of clear the decks.

95
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:04,000
Saying you shouldn't have done that. Yeah, but I kind of felt I felt well enough.

96
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,000
I only did it when I felt well enough to do it. Yeah.

97
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:16,000
So the volume of emails sometimes that come through our inboxes, it, it's, it's not always that way,

98
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,000
you know, but it can be particularly in the autumn twem and at this particular time in the autumn term.

99
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,000
So I was like, I just want to make sure that when I come back on Monday morning,

100
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:33,000
I don't have an inbox with kind of hundreds of emails in it that I have to try and deal with really quickly.

101
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000
And I think that that's it's it's not something I would normally do when I'm on annual leave.

102
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,000
Yeah. Because usually I would take annual leave in non term time.

103
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,000
So email is lower, but because it was term time, I made a decision to do things differently.

104
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:55,000
And I think part of part of this whole process is actually kind of giving yourself permission to do that, too.

105
00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:01,000
Yeah, it's so so I actually I was on sick leave this year for three months.

106
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:09,000
Yeah. Because I ended up getting long COVID but it was a similar thing where there was no obligation for me to do any work.

107
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:15,000
But I, I didn't want to not do anything because I felt like I would kind of stagnate.

108
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,000
Also I would go report and I was an extra and I was by myself for Loba as well.

109
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:26,000
So yeah. But yeah, it would have just been pretty boring. So when I felt like I had the kind of capacity that I did something that made

110
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000
me it made me feel better that I was still kind of ticking along a little bit.

111
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:35,000
But I, I still felt no obligation really. And I ended up writing that paper.

112
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,000
and getting it published. So it was a pretty good use of my time

113
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:46,000
And the idea that made life a lot easier than when I got back off sick leave because there was stuff

114
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:51,000
kind of ticked off the list and also other stuff that I'd been mulling over a little bit as well.

115
00:11:51,000 --> 00:12:01,000
Mulling over time is really helpful. Yeah. And I think that's what we we really undervalue about taking breaks and in a kind of small way,

116
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,000
you know, during the day, but also these longer kind of periods of holiday or annually.

117
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,000
Yeah. Actually really gives you time to think and to be really does this and that.

118
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,000
And so I get it for me. I find it gives me time to think and process.

119
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:23,000
Then I'll come up with kind of random little thoughts and I kind of join in my focus for a later date.

120
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000
Also, it gives you like a fresh perspective. When you get back to something, you need it.

121
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:35,000
Yeah, it's so valuable. The amount of times I've come back slightly after holiday or even weekend, I've been like, what was like,

122
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:42,000
this is this is silly for these reasons or like, oh, maybe I can tweak this or make it better this way.

123
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,000
And I wouldn't if I'd stuck with it the whole time and know how to break it, I would never go that benefit.

124
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,000
So. So two weeks off over Christmas. Yeah.

125
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:58,000
How do you how do you relax? How do you kind of.

126
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000
Switch off because, you know.

127
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:09,000
We have that mulling over time, which is great and it's really great for those kind of little moments of random thoughts and inspirations hit,

128
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:14,000
but also because, you know, what we do is an intellectual pursuit.

129
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:22,000
You can really switch off all thinking about your research and certainly about your PhD to allow you to see how how.

130
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,000
How do you go about that? How do you go about that relaxation switching off?

131
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Yeah, I guess I I've always been someone who gets bored really easily, so I have to find ways to kind of occupy my brain.

132
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:41,000
So if I'm not trying to occupy it with work, it's like reading gaming's quite a good one.

133
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,000
And like spending time my family as well. Like pestering my sister.

134
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,000
Or like I will not see this Christmas,

135
00:13:51,000 --> 00:14:00,000
but like I'll go round my Grandma's for a cup of tea basically getting away from a situation where I've sat at a laptop.

136
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:10,000
And that kind of that get that move away from the screen or getting away from the screen has become even more important now that we're all.

137
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:18,000
Well, I'm feeling lazy working from home. Yeah. And I think I you know, I talk to a lot of researchers and I'm exactly the same as me.

138
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:23,000
I, I cannot sit still. It's just not in my nature.

139
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,000
And I'm constantly told off because I,

140
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:35,000
I can't even watch television and not do something else at the same time playing a game on my phone or like on my switch or just like.

141
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:45,000
Because I do craft stuff like crochet or something. My brain doesn't seem to be able to function or cope unless it's doing a couple of things at once.

142
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,000
And it's been a really difficult kind of learning curve for me to learn.

143
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,000
I do I do need to do stuff to relax. Yeah, not just.

144
00:14:54,000 --> 00:15:03,000
You know, I know people who you can just sit. And, you know, I envy them.

145
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:09,000
And I do not understand them. Because that's not I need to do something.

146
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,000
And and more often than not, like you,

147
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:20,000
I need to read or game or craft or whatever is because I need something that's going to occupy my brain in whatever way.

148
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:26,000
Just to take my mind to stop me thinking about all of the other, you know,

149
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:32,000
all of the million things that need that need to be done because it's always more that needs to be done things.

150
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,000
So I'm I'm a really big fan of lists. Yeah.

151
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,000
So sometimes like I was usually if I'm I mean, it's not problem to think for research when, you know, actually work.

152
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,000
It's not really a problem unless you, like, sit, sat obsessing about it.

153
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:53,000
It's like not really enjoy yourself. But yeah, I find if I, if I find myself kind of stuck out of thought.

154
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,000
Or just add it like I just make a list on my phone. I just put this off my phone.

155
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:05,000
And I might even go back to the list and update it as I have more thoughts. But I find it really useful because then I know that I can go back.

156
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:10,000
I don't have to worry about it now when I get back to.

157
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,000
Look, even if it is just a weekend. But when I get back from a holiday, I can look back on that list.

158
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:20,000
Right. What do I need to address it? Like, came up and I did the same thing.

159
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:25,000
I send myself an email. So because I. So I have.

160
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:34,000
My I have my email account on my phone, but I don't have my mail synced, so I can't look at it and move on if I want to.

161
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:39,000
But I've got the calendar synced, but not my mail. And that has been really good.

162
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,000
Yeah. That I discovered that a few years ago.

163
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:49,000
That's been a really revolutionary thing for me because I can get it on that very quickly when I need it or want it.

164
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:57,000
But at the same time, it's it's just the inbox isn't even there. So where to do is if I have a thought or quite often I will you know,

165
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,000
I'll be scrolling through Twitter in the evening and I'll see something that's relevant

166
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,000
to work or something that I think I need to reply to that will do something about that.

167
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:11,000
I just e-mail myself to my work email with a kind of note saying you need to do this or look at this.

168
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:16,000
And I find that helps a lot because it kind of I know that I.

169
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:26,000
I jumped out of my brain. Yeah. Log on to my email on Monday morning or whenever is it will be there.

170
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:33,000
And that almost gives me permission to forget about it. Yeah, I mean, you forgot about having to get it to the site, so when.

171
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:43,000
Yes. Wherever you are, you know, so. Yeah. And I think that's one of the kind of the real benefits of of lists is the ability to put that down.

172
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000
But even people who work on a natural kind of list,

173
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:56,000
lovers know lots of people that have kind of notes on the phone or notebooks or voice notes or, you know, people do lots of different ways.

174
00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,000
Just get out of the brain.

175
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:16,000
And documented somewhere so that they couldn't, you know, get on with the business of relaxation, which is not the easiest thing in the world.

176
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,000
OK, so what about ways in which you.

177
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:31,000
Are there ways in which you connect with and kind of relax with the kind of PhD students, so that particular kind of.

178
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:37,000
Ways that interact with each other, that you kind of that you help each other relax.

179
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000
I guess I'm not so much, to be honest.

180
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000
I've got I've got a few friends who like.

181
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:55,000
So I would say the people, the people that I know who are PhD students they kind of broadly fit in to two categories

182
00:18:55,000 --> 00:19:00,000
So people that I only really would see you interact with when I'm at work.

183
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,000
Yeah. And then people who I do stuff with at the weekend or in evenings or whatever.

184
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,000
So yeah, the ones who I would do stuff with kind of outside of work.

185
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:21,000
Yeah. Well like me often stuff, but it's not, it's not a deliberate ploy to get them away from their work and holidays or.

186
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:31,000
Yeah. I think, I think broadly my kind of closer friends are pretty good, which are most of them have partners and things like that.

187
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,000
So I think that helps. Yeah.

188
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:43,000
I think, you know, not not to in any way suggest that, particularly during this period,

189
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:48,000
that kind of having partner in families and responsibilities makes things easier.

190
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000
Because I'm not that no. There is an extent to which it forces you to.

191
00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:06,000
Yeah. In some form of boundary. Because I think you've just got something external to remind you you shouldn't just be working the whole day.

192
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:10,000
We can't just work the whole day. You have to go and pick up pick child up from school.

193
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,000
You know, I mean, those aren't movable things. Yeah.

194
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:20,000
In the same way as perhaps kind of having a coffee with someone, whether that be in person,

195
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,000
socially distanced, virtually whatever it is we're doing at any given time.

196
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:32,000
But I think it's I think it's interesting because I hear from a lot of people that, you know, there is a kind of.

197
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,000
In some ways a demarcation between kind of.

198
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:46,000
PhD life and then kind of personal and family life where a lot of people's friends are actually not PhD students.

199
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,000
Yeah. I think I just want to switch off my friends and.

200
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:59,000
I think all of my friends in Exeter are PhD students pretty much. And then my friends from home, a couple of them, actually.

201
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,000
But most of them just have kind of normal jobs, if you like. Yeah.

202
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:10,000
I don't find that really to be a problem. I see. We'll end up talking a lot about for this stuff.

203
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:17,000
Yeah. When we're just trying. But not in a way. I like I don't I don't want to fly down.

204
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,000
I mean, it's not like we're sitting down and having your in-depth supervisory about my work.

205
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,000
What I've done in the past week, this idea or this piece of data. Exactly.

206
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:36,000
And it's sometimes super helpful. Especially when, like those very stresses, it's tough to hear from them how they're doing if they're doing well.

207
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:41,000
But it's really nice to see we're happy for them if they're stressed that it's nice because you can both commiserate together.

208
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,000
I think that's what I was trying to get out to you.

209
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:51,000
That senses there's there's a benefit to people that share your experience and that really understand what it's like to be in it.

210
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:57,000
And so, like you say, celebrate with you when it's going well and commiserate with you when it's not.

211
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:04,000
But then having kind of the people outside of that, you don't necessarily have.

212
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:15,000
Experience or understanding of what this journey is like. And, you know, quite frankly, possibly don't want to know.

213
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,000
I'm reminded of a wonderful moment that my life was staying with my father over Christmas.

214
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,000
And he picked up a draft of a book chapter that I was working on with my supervisor.

215
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:30,000
And he read a sentence of it. And he went. Kelly, I love you, but I've got no idea what you do.

216
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:36,000
and he went and I'm okay with that. And I had this moment of

217
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,000
Yeah, it's it's kind of fine because that it and it works would me.

218
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,000
Because we don't. There's a usual kind of like always it go it all right.

219
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:49,000
Yeah. It's fine. Yeah. But there's no in-depth conversation because.

220
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:59,000
Nobody really knows what questions to ask, and they don't really care. I find that I find support those the kind of people not wanting to know quite.

221
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,000
It can be quite freeing. Guess. Yeah, sure. All right.

222
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:09,000
Okay. I can't I can't talk about it because it's not the audience for it, I guess.

223
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:16,000
Yeah, I completely I've definitely had that with not so much family members, but like friends,

224
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000
family, like neighbours and things like that, they'll be like, oh like how's it going on my.

225
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,000
Oh yeah. You said you are going to be. Oh. What's that about. And I'm like, I actually don't want to talk about it.

226
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,000
I it's nice that you asked but also.

227
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:39,000
So it's really kind of up there and there's always that I always say like make a joke about the moment that they ask the question for the detail.

228
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:46,000
And then if you start giving the I always gave it really quick, like, ah, I regret asking this question.

229
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:53,000
Yeah. Because it's complicated and I'm not sure I actually want to know.

230
00:23:53,000 --> 00:24:03,000
So how I guess. How do you manage all of this being away from.

231
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:12,000
Like family. So obviously, like like a lot of people you come to Exeter to do your PhD

232
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,000
How do you kind of manage all of this stuff and manage relaxing and taking holidays and

233
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000
taking breaks with being kind of distant from your family and obviously even more,

234
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,000
say, in the past few months? Yeah.

235
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:31,000
I mean, I've always. So I went. So my family from where my family live in London.

236
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000
And I did my undergrad and my masters up in Scotland.

237
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000
So I've always been, like, pretty far away from them. Yeah.

238
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,000
So like anything crazy. But it's not. So you can't just pop back home.

239
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:52,000
So I'm pretty used to being out a this is my family not seeing them like loads.

240
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,000
And yeah, I keep myself just keep myself busy I guess. I talk to them quite a lot.

241
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:01,000
Like I text my sister probably anywhere between five and 30 times a day.

242
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,000
Yeah. So it's it's I don't feel like separate from the from them necessarily.

243
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,000
And they'll be like, let me get more, text me. But I Oh you know what you up to this weekend kind of thing.

244
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Yeah. Which is quite nice. I usually have some things to report. I also I play hockey.

245
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,000
I haven't been recently because of COVID

246
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:31,000
But that actually takes up quite a lot of time either in the holidays, like they'll put on extra training sessions and stuff.

247
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000
But then at the weekends, it takes up most of my Saturday, to be honest. Yeah.

248
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,000
Like getting ready, getting to the match,

249
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:46,000
having lunch and getting back for the match can take anything from like four to six hours, depending on where I'm playing.

250
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:54,000
So, yeah, I guess just keeping busy. I have quite a lot of hobbies, so I don't really I really have trouble filling my time.

251
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:03,000
Yeah. And and thinking about actually playing, playing sport and doing something that involves that kind of training.

252
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,000
How how does that fit in with managing the PhD

253
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:12,000
Like what benefits does that really. Well see so I don't play for the uni

254
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:20,000
So it's really nice to meet people on. I mean, some of the people that I play with, I like medical students, things like that.

255
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,000
But for the most part, people aren't affiliated with university.

256
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:32,000
So it's like getting to meet other people from the real world, the real world from out on the road.

257
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:40,000
It's quite nice. And yeah, because it's kind of a schedule thing that there's definitely been days where, say, we've had training,

258
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:48,000
training somebody about seven o'clock or I've had like a late day in the office or I've had to say I felt like, I have to stay late to do something.

259
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:55,000
And I'm like, hey, I've got hockey, so I have to stop. I have to put this down and I have to go and play hockey.

260
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,000
But yet also seeing them, like a lot of them, just have kind of nine to five jobs.

261
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,000
So seeing them on social media,

262
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000
like enjoying their weekends and enjoying their holidays and not even mentioning thinking about work is again, it's quite good.

263
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:17,000
Like model. Yeah. To build off. So like I know it is a academia, we can see something very different,

264
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:26,000
but really it it should just be a job like it's that's what I'm contracted for, is to receive my  stipend for doing like 40 hours a weel

265
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:33,000
So I don't see why should they. More than that I should be able to compete in that time.

266
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:43,000
Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's that kind of. And if if it's not possible within that time, then the problem is with the system and not with you.

267
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000
I think people often, you know, when people are experiencing like impostersyndrome and.

268
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:57,000
Stress and that kind of thing, it's very easy to go, oh, well, the problem is me, you know, and feeling the pressure to work all the time.

269
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,000
That it was tough, whereas actually, you know,

270
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:06,000
it's the acknowledgement that we actually work in a system that that kind of pushes that in the way it's structured.

271
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,000
And that's not to suggest that any individual person or institution does that.

272
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:18,000
But but it's it's a systemic thing. Yeah. It's a which is why we say that it's really brave to kind of not do that because

273
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:24,000
actually the system is constructed in a way to try and get and get you to.

274
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,000
And but people always blame it on kind of personal failures, whereas actually, you know, there's external responsibility.

275
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,000
I think more. So I see quite a lot of.

276
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:41,000
I'm quite active on Twitter and I do see people on their say like like I saw some of my other days that they haven't had a holiday for like two years.

277
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,000
And I was just like, well, I like that's crazy.

278
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000
I'm never gonna say that if I. Like I said, I want to stay in academia.

279
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:57,000
If if I have to do that, stay in academia or I'm not doing it, that's just silly. You've got to prioritise yourself at some point.

280
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:04,000
And I appreciate that. Some people say they're just a lot more that one is not even a dedication thing.

281
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:11,000
I think they just have different priorities. But for me, it's it sounds selfish, but it's not a way to stay healthy.

282
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:18,000
You just go for it yourself. So I think that that's well, that's what's really encouraging for me in the job that I mean,

283
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:24,000
is that so many PGRs now are saying what you're saying, which is I want to stay in academia.

284
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:31,000
You know, I want a career in the sector, but also, you know, that kind of culture of overwork.

285
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:38,000
And I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to engage in that.

286
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:44,000
This is No. Criticism to anybody.

287
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,000
That is subject to those things,

288
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:53,000
because there's a whole kind of complex kind of culture area of audit and metrics and that kind of forces people to say,

289
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,000
you know, this isn't a criticism of them at all.

290
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:01,000
But it's really encouraging to think that there's kind of a new generation of scholars coming up through the system going.

291
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,000
Well, no, actually, we don't need to buy into that.

292
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:14,000
And when you've got academic role models like your supervisor, you are able to to demarcate in that way.

293
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:21,000
And I think in a particularly, I know a lot of very successful academics in our institution.

294
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:27,000
Whoo hoo! You know, incredibly successful. You do exactly the same as your supervisor does.

295
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:37,000
You have very clear boundaries and very clear kind of work life balance. Yeah, it it shows the the rest of the community what is possible.

296
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,000
And it's not that people that aren't doing that are doing something wrong. I know academics.

297
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:48,000
I've got friends who. You know, they they work pretty much constantly, but they do that out of active choice.

298
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
It's interesting that you bring up because yeah,

299
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:58,000
I there's definitely so actually the people I lived with in my first year here, he worked every day of the week.

300
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000
And I, I also about it once because I just don't understand how you do this.

301
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:11,000
I can't I just can't do that for him. He had to work every day of the week or he just he would just lose focus, will get too stressed.

302
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:16,000
But he didn't he. He never overworked himself like he would get up.

303
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000
he never set an alarm. He would get up whenever he got up

304
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,000
He would go into uni and he he did quite long days, but they'd be peppered with like meeting friends and stuff like that.

305
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:32,000
So, yeah, there isn't one way to do it. And also, even if you don't want to do that, even if you do want to work like twelve hours a day,

306
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,000
seven days a week, if that's what you want to do and if you can sustain it, I'd be happy.

307
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,000
That is completely fine. It just doesn't work for me at all. So I just won't take part in anything.

308
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,000
And I think that that's really important. It's about that sense of individual choice and what and what works for you.

309
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:55,000
Yeah, I do. I do think that for the majority of people, that doesn't work.

310
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,000
But I know, I know and have friends and colleagues for whom it very much does.

311
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,000
And for him, it's very fulfilling. There's some people who really thrive on that, don't they?

312
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:11,000
If they're just really well for them. Yeah. And that's and that's absolutely brilliant.

313
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000
But I think that's the thing that we've got to be careful of is we don't make that the.

314
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,000
When that becomes the exception that we want that to be the exception rather than the rule.

315
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:26,000
And I feel at the moment it's the rule. And your supervisor.

316
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,000
And, you know, that's the exception. And that for me is whether where our culture needs to shift and where I kind of feel,

317
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:39,000
you know, I have my moments of feeling kind of really, really encouraged that, you know,

318
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,000
with with this kind of new generation of scholars coming through,

319
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:49,000
that that shift is coming because I'm seeing more and more people put these boundaries in place and talk openly about it.

320
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:55,000
That's the other thing. It's not just having those boundaries. It's talking about it and talking about how you manage it.

321
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000
Yeah, we need you know, I we're saying earlier, we need those role models.

322
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,000
And we need those examples of senior people doing that.

323
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:14,000
So I guess my next question is, what advice do you have for other paedophiles who say imagining a fictional PGR,

324
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,000
which will be of a lot of PGRs as I imagine.

325
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:28,000
They really, really wants to get to a stage where they're working nine to five, where they're taking their holiday, but they just feel.

326
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:35,000
Pressured by, you know, the way other people in that department are working and or overwhelmed by workload.

327
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,000
What advice would you give them?

328
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:49,000
So I think the key thing is organise yourself so that you know that you can get done what you need to get done in that time.

329
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:57,000
I, I plan I plan on my weeks out and I'm constantly reviewing where I am and what I need to do things like that.

330
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,000
So occasionally I do end up working or we can do whatever to get some stuff out of the way.

331
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:09,000
So I know that the next week I can get on their feet. I need to get done in the time that I have to do it.

332
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:17,000
I think that's really the major pressure. People feel like they can't get everything done if they if they only do it on five or whatever.

333
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Another thing would be when you're working. You were actually working.

334
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:30,000
So I know some people who do they do long hours, but a lot of it is actually quite unproductive,

335
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:40,000
which is completely fine if that's how you prefer to work. But for me, my nine to five, it's it's a very productive nine to five at least.

336
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,000
Definitely the first kind of four hours of the day. I'm I get loads of stuff done.

337
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:51,000
I get as much as I can. And then I might be a bit more relaxed. I might have a slightly longer lunch or whatever, but yeah, I,

338
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:59,000
I make sure that the time that I am doing my work is I'm really like pick some quality working and.

339
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,000
Yeah. But that also really helps because then I don't feel bad for taking time off.

340
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:11,000
I know that I've done the 40 hours or thirty seven point five or whatever it is in the week,

341
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:18,000
and I know that I've done my best at doing that and with being organised, I then know that I'm on track.

342
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,000
So yeah, I don't I don't feel bad at all for taking time off.

343
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,000
Also, just be a bit nicer to also look like you deserve.

344
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000
If you want to take time off, we need to take time off. You completely deserve it.

345
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,000
It's it's more like a luxury that you have to earn.

346
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:41,000
I know I said I feel like I have to earn my time off, but it's more that's just for me to kind of feel.

347
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:49,000
Happy with everything. And really, that's what you want to get to. You won't get to a point where you're just happy with the work you're doing.

348
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:58,000
The balance that you have. Thank you so much to Ellie for taking the time to talk to me about how she manages, well,

349
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:04,000
life balance and taking breaks and taking holidays and weekends and and all of those sorts of things.

350
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,000
And for her great advice for other PGRs,

351
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000
as you think you can tell from the conversation that I've been thinking a lot about well-being

352
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,000
and self care and some of the structural issues we have within higher education at the moment.

353
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:24,000
And I think it's really important to acknowledge those when we're talking about work life balance and well-being,

354
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,000
but also to acknowledge the pressures that people have outside work. You know,

355
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:36,000
it's not as simple as taking evenings and weekends for people if they are also working or

356
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,000
are self-funded or part time or have families or partners or caring responsibilities.

357
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:51,000
And I think I just want to take a moment to acknowledge that.

358
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:57,000
And that's it for 2020. Thank you so much for coming on this journey with me so far.

359
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:17,000
And I really look forward to more discussions about researchers development and the in betweens in 2021.

360
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,000
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.

361
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:49,175
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researches, development and everything in between.

 

 

 

Surviving and thriving in the Viva - Edward Mills

In this episode I talk again to Edward Mills who appeared on the second episode of the podcast. Sincer we last spoke Edward has submitted his thesis and passed his viva with minor corrections, and in this episode we'll go right through that process from submission, to prep, to the viva itself and doing the corrections.

You can find out about the Viva Survivors podcast and resources Edward mentions on the Viva Survivors website.

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and the Inbetweens.

2
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D in the In Betweens.

4
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000
Today, I'm really pleased to be joined once again by Edward Mills,

5
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:48,000
who I spoke to very early on in the kind of the days of this podcast about writing up during the time of Corona virus.

6
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:56,000
And today, I'm really delighted to be talking to Edward about his experience of the VIva, which he passed last month with minor corrections.

7
00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000
So, Edward, tell us what you've been up to since we last spoke.

8
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:11,000
Well, it's a it's been a busy few months. I had my viva at the start of October.

9
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:20,000
And since then, I've been waiting for and subsequently received my corrections, which I'm currently working on as ever with postgrad life.

10
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:27,000
Plenty of other things have come up and got in the way as well. But it's been a it's been an exciting period, I think.

11
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:36,000
And I'm looking forward to talking about it today. Yeah. So. As I said at the start, you passed with minor corrections, which is absolutely fantastic.

12
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:42,000
Thank you. Let's talk. Okay. I think it'd be easiest to talk if we talk chronologically.

13
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,000
Yeah. So talk to me about submission.

14
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:52,000
What was that like? So submitting was terrifying.

15
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:56,000
I actually started to think about submission a long time ago,

16
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:02,000
mainly because I'd spent the last year procrastinating by doing my acknowledgements, of course, Naturally

17
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:13,000
And. I really looked forward to the moment when I go up to the sid desk, the student information desk we have here in Exeter, and hand in my thesis,

18
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,000
having done it with a few other people before and having kind of helped them out and been with them and

19
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,000
taken the photos of them getting their thesis printed in the student print room just above all of that jazz.

20
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000
I'm really looking forward to it. And then the rona happened.

21
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000
Oh, she did. Yes. And unfortunately, that got in the way slightly.

22
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:41,000
So therefore, my submission process involved hitting send on an e-mail entitled My PhD Thesis.

23
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:49,000
Yeah, it doesn't quite have the same celebrator moment to it as kind of taking having a picture taken in the in

24
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:55,000
the forum and but especially not when you get an out of out of office reply email in response to it.

25
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,000
Yes. Yes. Because I sent over the weekend.

26
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:08,000
But I mean, even though the the moment of submission, perhaps perhaps less celebratory, I imagine the time afterwards wasn't any.

27
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000
Was it about as anticlimactic as it usually is? Yes.

28
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:22,000
So in practical terms, what it meant for me was not sending a PDF, but sending a onedrive because my thesis was quite large.

29
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:28,000
And then the file size, not necessarily in terms of intellectual knowledge, but in terms of file size.

30
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,000
It was a minor corrections would disagree with you. In terms of file size, it was surprisingly large.

31
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:39,000
So what I ended up doing was having several PDFs chapter by chapter with high res images and then a single one for the whole thesis,

32
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,000
volume one and volume two with low resolution images on it.

33
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:50,000
So I'd send that link off and then I had a minor panic because I couldn't quite grasp what I'd done.

34
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000
I wasn't quite able to understand the enormity of having submitted a thesis.

35
00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:02,000
Luckily, I was doing some work the following morning so I couldn't focus too heavily on that.

36
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:13,000
But it was a slightly anticlimactic period, especially because not a lot happens between the submission and the Viva period.

37
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:20,000
You're in that sort of no man's land, apart from the occasional email from your internal examiner to confirm dates and times.

38
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,000
And then you get the teams notification in my case saying Edward Mills, viva,

39
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:30,000
because, of course, you did an online Viva, which will come to you in a moment. Yes, absolutely. Well, how so?

40
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:38,000
How long was the gap between submission and Viva? So I submitted on I think it was.

41
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,000
It was something like the 5th of September. OK. Or the note was a little early in that.

42
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:50,000
So I think that the twenty eighth of August, something along those lines and my viva was on the 5th of October.

43
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,000
So it was just about a month and a half. That's pretty... It was a fairly speedy that the regulations say it was.

44
00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,000
So it's to be within what, three months. Yeah, but it's one of those sort of at Exeter

45
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,000
Certainly the regulations are within usually within three months because there were all sorts

46
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:09,000
of reasons why it might need to go beyond three months in terms of availability of externals,

47
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,000
etc, etc. But my my viva itself was on the 5th of October.

48
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:21,000
So within within a couple of months after submission, even if I can remember the exact date when I when I hit submit or send one.

49
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:30,000
So when did you start preparing for the viva?

50
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:37,000
I think preparing for the viva actually began before I submitted to a certain degree.

51
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000
I've been very fortunate to have a wonderful,

52
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000
wonderful PhD supervisor and on a few occasions we did discuss things in the thesis I was drafting them that we thought were defensible.

53
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,000
That would need to be defended at the Viva.

54
00:05:50,000 --> 00:06:00,000
So particular decisions we'd taken in terms of why I'd taken intend to structure in terms of points of focus, in terms of what I hadn't focussed on.

55
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:09,000
But in practical terms, I would certainly say that the main prep for the viva actually happened fairly shortly beforehand.

56
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:15,000
I spent the first couple of weeks after I submitted doing teaching.

57
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:21,000
Which meant that I was something external to the university, which meant that I wasn't really looking at the thesis all that much,

58
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,000
that's probably a good thing in terms of having a fresh pair of eyes to come back to it. Yeah.

59
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,000
We always advise that. I'm hoping at some point you took some form of a break. Oh, absolutely.

60
00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,000
Yes.

61
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:40,000
I, I, I did a a big celebratory bike ride, which those of you who remember my previous podcast will remember talking about whizzing downhills going.

62
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:46,000
We it's it's not how everybody would choose to celebrate, but it's how I chose to sell.

63
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,000
Well indeed. We were still inside while we were under restrictions in the UK.

64
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,000
So celebrations have taken on a very different meaning in the last six months.

65
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:08,000
Yes, this is very true. But in the stage, running up to the viva itself, I think most of the prep that I did falls into two stages.

66
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:16,000
The first was learning about the Viva itself and understanding a bit more about what the viva would be and what it would be like.

67
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000
That included a lot of things I did before I submitted, including attending some of the sessions.

68
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,000
thedoctoral college offers. Thank you for the plug, I think. All right.

69
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:36,000
now worries. And that also included talking to quite a few people who'd been through Viva, both in my discipline,

70
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,000
which is modern languages and mediaeval studies, and also outside of it as well.

71
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000
So. Just to pick up on that, I. When you when you were speaking to people.

72
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000
Yes. About their viva experiences, what were you asking them?

73
00:07:52,000 --> 00:08:02,000
I was asking them to describe how their viva experience was, if there was anything that they did not expect in their viva, OK?

74
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000
And also what they might have done differently and what advice they might have for me.

75
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:15,000
And I got a very wide range of pieces of advice coming back at me.

76
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,000
And I think the thing that emerged throughout all of that was you're the expert.

77
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:29,000
It's difficult to believe that. I'm sure that something will come back to later in the podcast. But that was the main theme that came out from it.

78
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:40,000
One practical piece of advice that I received, which I would very much recommend people do, is to produce a.

79
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:48,000
e prep document of some form and a friend of mine very kindly passed on theirs,

80
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,000
which basically included brief summaries of some of their chapters.

81
00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:00,000
I expanded that myself to make it the thesis on one side of a4 or summarised each section of my thesis.

82
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,000
This is moving on to sort of the second stage now,

83
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000
which is annotating and improving and augmenting the thesis, if you like, for the Viva and like augmenting.

84
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000
Oh, yes, absolutely. So it's a VR thesis some way. We'll talk about that in a second.

85
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:23,000
And I adapted that to my thesis on one side of A4, which made it much easier to refer to.

86
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000
And as a piece of advice I've actually had given and a number of times by.

87
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,000
Academics and researchers to actually being able to articulate it on one side

88
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,000
of A4 and either in kind of precis form or in bullet point form is really,

89
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:49,000
really important because it helps you. Crystallise and consolidate what the main driver of it is, which is often something you're asked to do right.

90
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:53,000
The beginning of the viva is a warm up question, but will come back. Oh, absolutely.

91
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,000
And I was very much hoping that I'd have to do it, octosylabic couplets, but unfortunately, that never happened.

92
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,000
Yes. Well, I think that might be a challenge for most people. There's also a bit niche isn't it.

93
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,000
The other thing I did, based on that particular piece advice, my friends,

94
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:13,000
which I heartily recommend, is producing what I called the kind of nightmare sheet

95
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:20,000
which was basically all of the questions I hoped I wouldn't be asked, but expected I probably would be.

96
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:30,000
Yes. So questions about why you've done this or any holds you think you might have spotted so that you can look at that.

97
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,000
There is no rule against taking notes into your viva. Certainly here at Exeter, I know the rules may vary always read the label.

98
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:43,000
But in Exeter, it was it was something I did check with my chair of the Viva.

99
00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:52,000
And there were no issues there whatsoever. And that led me on to this sort of second stage of prep, which was the augmented or the annotated thesis.

100
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:57,000
Everyone talks about annotating your thesis or be reading it before the viva.

101
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:01,000
I came across a term in a podcast called Viva Survivors,

102
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:07,000
which I'm sure people listening to this podcast may already have heard, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes.

103
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000
But the advice there was to think of notes you add to your thesis as augmenting them.

104
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:17,000
The point being that you're making those notes so that you can further them in the Vivas.

105
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:24,000
So you want to make your thesis more navigable for you. You want to make your thesis more friendly for you.

106
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,000
And you want to make your thesis. Searchable figures.

107
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,000
Yes. And that's precisely what the notes were about.

108
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:38,000
I divided my notes into three types, a different colour highlighter for each one typos, which rapidly became just a list at the end instead.

109
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:47,000
That was much easier. Yes. Danger points, which were things I suspected will be picked up on no relation to Danger Mouse.

110
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:53,000
And then also points for expansions are things I've discovered since submission

111
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000
or things I thought I could say more on if I if I were given the opportunity.

112
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,000
Those were the ones where I knew I could go off on a little kind of excitable tangent,

113
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,000
which is something I'm sure we'll talk about in the viva itself.

114
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:16,000
So those were the two steps really of prep the beforehand the kind of discovery about the viva and the initial thinking about how I'd approach it.

115
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:24,000
And then the actual sitting down and reading through the thesis again and augmenting the reading through it actually took place fairly later on.

116
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:33,000
So I, I finished reading it. You know, in the days before the viva rather than like a month beforehand, that.

117
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000
But I imagine that is even more fresh in your mind. Yes, that's one advantage of doing it that way.

118
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:44,000
You're absolutely right. So did you do any kind of did you a mock viva?

119
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,000
Did you do any practise aloud of answering the

120
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,000
You know, you said about your nightmare sheet. Did you practise verbally the answers to those questions or was it all very kind of

121
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:59,000
The augmentation and the prep documents were paper based. I wondered if you did anything.

122
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:04,000
So I've. Try to sort of speak about my research.

123
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:11,000
Throughout my thesis, I'm quite lucky to have been given the chance to do that and we've taken the chance to do that in various places.

124
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:17,000
So it wasn't my first time speaking about my thesis in in some detail.

125
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:22,000
And I think that's one of the reasons I didn't do a full mock vivA.

126
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:28,000
What I did do, though, is on the morning of my of my thesis, Viva I.

127
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,000
I was lucky enough to meet my supervisor and said to him, Wait. Could I ask a favour?

128
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,000
Would you be willing to make me uncomfortable?

129
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:45,000
You ask me all of the really, really hard questions that I don't want to be asked, as unreasonable as you might think they are having you.

130
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:51,000
And they've been with me on this thesis journey. Can you put me on the spot, please?

131
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000
And then we'll discuss the responses I give to that.

132
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,000
And obviously, that was basically a chance for me to practise, referring to the nightmare scenario sheet.

133
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:04,000
And how was that? Supposing you were awkward, because my supervisor, when I get on quite well.

134
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:12,000
So it was very strange to hear him picking up so many things that we'd already discussed.

135
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:19,000
Obviously, there was. This is the other danger of doing that. Yeah. There was another practical issue on my part, which is I don't.

136
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:26,000
In order to have a mock viva, in some respects, that needs to be done with people who are intimately familiar with your thesis.

137
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,000
And that wasn't necessarily the case for me, that there were that many people who could do that.

138
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,000
Yes, of course, it depends a lot on the department that you're in.

139
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:43,000
I would always advocate making the mock viva's something you're doing for years rather than something that you have before the Viva.

140
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,000
But of course, it is a really useful tool. I know plenty of people who've had one and would recommend one as an essential part of it.

141
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,000
Yeah, and I think that's part of the kind of the subjective nature of this.

142
00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,000
You know, it's about finding the kind of preparation that works for you.

143
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:08,000
So you've said about the morning of the viva, you speak to your supervisor, got them to ask you awkward questions.

144
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:14,000
And we mentioned earlier your viva was online as so many Vivas that are taking place now.

145
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:22,000
Ah. And I would imagine increasingly in the future and the majority of vivas will be at the very least blended, if not online.

146
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:30,000
Can you talk a little bit about your feelings about doing the Viva online So online vivas

147
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,000
I think, as you say, it's going to become more and more the norm.

148
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,000
Yeah. In the future, even after restrictions are eased.

149
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:48,000
I myself didn't have too many qualms about doing my Viva online it

150
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:57,000
Didn't seem to me to be a huge change, and in some respects it has its own advantages, which we'll talk about later, I'm sure.

151
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,000
It was nerve wracking, of course, being on my own in a room.

152
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000
I was basically in my flat before the viva started.

153
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,000
And I was just sitting there looking at this incoming teamn notifcation called Edward Mills.

154
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Viva which is faintly errifying. Yeah, rather ominous name for me.

155
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:22,000
I did have to go and stick a sign on my on my flat door saying, please don't disturb.

156
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,000
Viva in progress. Thanks very much. Say it was.

157
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:39,000
It was an. Ominous and slightly nerve wracking experience, but it's not as big a deal beforehand as I'd expected it to be.

158
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,000
Indeed, during the Viva itself, I guess there's all that much to say about the fact that it was online.

159
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:49,000
And that seems to be what so initially when, you know, all these things started moving online,

160
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,000
one of the conversations a lot people were having was kind of like, we know how do we support be able to do online?

161
00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:02,000
And as people started to do them and upgrade Vivas as well. The thing that came back was actually materially it's not very different.

162
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,000
No. And we did have a requirement to say this was myself.

163
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:14,000
The were all those in attendance. So myself, the internal, the external.

164
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:19,000
And there was a chair as well in my viva, a non examining independent chair

165
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,000
Yes.

166
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:29,000
To say that we did not feel that the viva had been conducted unfairly and that we did not feel that there was any detriment to having conducted online.

167
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:36,000
That's a very important thing to note. Having the viva online did have one advantage to it, and this is, again,

168
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:42,000
something that I checked with the chair during the viva itself, which is I was able to share my screen.

169
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:48,000
Yes. And this is one practical thing that I found very, very useful because I was able to pull up.

170
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,000
In my specific case, I work a lot with mediaeval manuscripts.

171
00:17:52,000 --> 00:18:01,000
So in my case, I was able to pull up images and to show those images in a greater resolution than could be shown in the images from my thesis.

172
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:09,000
Absolutely. And certainly, you know, in a Face-To-Face viva, you could take in a USB stick with similar content on.

173
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:15,000
And then if you were asked and there's usually a computer in a room because when when isn't there a computer in a room these days?

174
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:22,000
You could show it, but much, much less clunky and much easier to kind of prepare for and to do in the moment.

175
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,000
And also, of course, having a PDF copy of your thesis on the computer in front of you means it's searchable.

176
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,000
you probably remember I checked this with you before the viva

177
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,000
Whether this was alright or not Yes. But you can just control F and find a particular term.

178
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:42,000
And then flick to that page in your in your printed theses, which I would very much recommend you.

179
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:48,000
You have for anyone who's visualising this at home, by the way, I have this on  the table in front of me right now.

180
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:56,000
This is what thesis sounds like. Sorry. I'm sure anyone who wasn't expecting that will thank me.

181
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,000
Their ears will thank you later. Yes. I believe the phrase is RIP headphone users.

182
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:09,000
Yes. Really sorry. So. How long was your viva?

183
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:19,000
Long, very long, specifically four hours, which I'm not I'm not gasping in a in in shock because I already knew this.

184
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:27,000
This is why I asked you. But the so at Exeter four hours is the absolute absolute maximum.

185
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:36,000
It could be. Yes, it is. Yeah. And isn't it right that your examiners spent basically no time discussing the outcome because

186
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,000
they had to get the result back to you and do all of that within that four hour time limit?

187
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:48,000
Yes. So if I remember this correctly, we had a two hour slot, basically, then another two hour slots.

188
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000
We had a break in the middle, which was ten minutes. We went through it chapter by chapter.

189
00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:00,000
So the break came after about two hours for about 10 minutes or so.

190
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:13,000
And then after that, just about three hours and 40 minutes into the viva and the chair pointed out that they had to finish the viva soon

191
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,000
And therefore, I was asked to leave the room, the virtual room.

192
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,000
This is the thing people have asked this in. Q And A's I've been involved with since then.

193
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:28,000
Yes. So leaving the room literally means, in this case, hanging up the teams call and then rejoining 10 minutes later.

194
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,000
What did you do in that 10 minutes? Mostly pacing nervously around my small flat.

195
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:40,000
Yeah. Guess at least if you're in the department, your your supervisor will , will be physically there,

196
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:47,000
and people tend to go to people's offices or they'll go to their office or, you know, they'll have people to interact with.

197
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,000
That must have been even though it was only ten minutes.

198
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:55,000
It must have been an incredibly nerve wracking ten minutes. Yeah, it was nerve wracking.

199
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,000
There's actually no requirement for supervisors to attend.

200
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,000
No, it's it's an option. Yes. Many supervisors might want to.

201
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,000
My supervisor was very keen to give me the choice of of him not attending if if I'd rather not.

202
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:15,000
Yes. I was perfectly happy for him to attend. And in fact, it was slightly easier in some respects than it would have been if I had been in in person,

203
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:21,000
rather because he was able to mite himself and turn off his video. So he was in kind of unannounced observing background.

204
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,000
Yes. Which which is if you're doing it face to face, exactly how it should be.

205
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:30,000
Yes. So. How was it four hours?

206
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:36,000
I mean, for a lot of people who listening to this, that's going to sound like a horror story.

207
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:45,000
So tell us how it was. Well, I think the first thing to say is it was four hours because there was a lot to talk about.

208
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000
Not four hours because they were testing how long I could go without having a drink over a cup of coffee.

209
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,000
Incidentally, the answer to that question is four hours. Yes.

210
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,000
Generally, though, the viva was a really positive experience.

211
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:03,000
And that's not something that I was expecting.

212
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:07,000
It's something that you hear from. A lot of people say no, actually really enjoyed them all the time.

213
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:19,000
But going into the viva, I did not expect that my my pathological fear was of major corrections or revise and resubmit

214
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:29,000
And neither that is necessarily bad outcomes. It's important to say, but I had it in my head that they were.

215
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:35,000
But if I can enjoy the Viva. Anyone can, because I was terrified beforehand, is what you say about that.

216
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:43,000
Yes. So in terms of how the viva actually went. Each of my examiners took the lead on a different Chapter

217
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:51,000
It just so happened that my internal examiner was an expert in one of the things I discussed in the chapter, which, you know, is not always the case.

218
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,000
No. And it's not always the case that they do go that kind of chronologically through their thesis.

219
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:02,000
It's much more common in the sciences, but less so in the humanities. So it seems like it's interesting.

220
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,000
Interesting that they took that approach. Yeah.

221
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,000
It's worth noting the examiners did explain at the start of the viva what they'd done

222
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:13,000
What they'd done beforehand, which is that they'd met together. And then they'd compared notes.

223
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,000
Yes. So they clearly had a strategy in mind, like in terms of what actually happened.

224
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:26,000
First, we had a little bit of admin at the start where the way the chair sort of clarified what

225
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,000
would be going on and what her role was and asked if you had any Gwenny questions and,

226
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000
you know, maximum time limits and so on and so forth.

227
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,000
But I was very lucky, actually, in that my internal took the lead on a lot of the a lot of the kind of admin stuff.

228
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:50,000
And as a way into the viva itself, she actually explained what the thesis was measuring.

229
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,000
And I'm sure that the... You mean the examination criteria?

230
00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:02,000
Yes. Things like the ability to create new knowledge and satisfactory literary presentation, listening presentation, conceptualising a project, adjusting its design.

231
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,000
Those five ideas, I'm sure listeners to this podcast have come across before.

232
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:17,000
Yeah. So how did they start the questioning? Well, they started by telling me that I had passed

233
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:21,000
They did not tell me what kind of pass it was. Yeah.

234
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,000
So that's. Again, that's relatively unusual.

235
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:33,000
So a pass would mean you would be one of a kind of three of the four possible options, an outcome.

236
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,000
So you either, no corrections, minor corrections or major corrections.

237
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,000
And it's important to say that it's not common practise necessarily to do that.

238
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:49,000
Some examiners do, some examiners don't. But if they don't do that, it doesn't mean that you've got to revise and resubmit or anything like that.

239
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,000
It's just it's a stylistic thing.

240
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:59,000
It's also worth saying, I think, that they were not saying, as you probably pointed out, that I had passed with minor corrections.

241
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:06,000
They were simply saying that I would not have a revise and resubmit, which again, is not necessarily a comment on the quality of the thesis.

242
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:14,000
You've said before that. They reflects much more than just how good or bad the thesis is in and of itself.

243
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Questions about the scope of the thesis and so on come into the decision for revise and resubmit

244
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,000
Oh, yeah. But it's it's a complex. So it's a complex.

245
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,000
Yes. Yeah. It really is thing. And a lot of it is the difference between certainly between minor.

246
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:35,000
and major is still the amount of time it would take you to do the corrections rather than the supposed flaws or weakness in the thesis,

247
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000
which I think is how, you know, when you were saying about you were concerned about getting you know,

248
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,000
you were convinced it was going to be major corrections or a revise and resubmit. We tend to think about that on a kind of.

249
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000
You said it yourself. Good or bad, pass or fail. And flaw based model.

250
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:57,000
Whereas actually, it's it's not about that. It's about what needs to be done to bring the thesis to a pass

251
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000
Yes. And what how long that will take.

252
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:11,000
Quite right. Yeah. My approach when I got told that it was a pass, I assumed that it was go they were going to be corrections.

253
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,000
I always assumed I would get corrections. I think that's a healthy way of doing it.

254
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000
Statistically, much more likely. Yes.

255
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:28,000
And my decision when I heard that you've passed this is about improving and rendering the thesis was to say, okay.

256
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Right. My job now for the next, however long it would be would be to convince the

257
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:39,000
examiners that I should be awarded minor corrections rather than major ones,

258
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,000
both by defending what could reasonably be defended and justified decisions I'd made,

259
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:53,000
and also by showing them through my knowledge of the topics and through my engagement with the thesis since the viva

260
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000
that the changes that I would need to make, that I would not be able to sort of.

261
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:05,000
Justify not doing could be made sufficiently quickly for them to count as minor rather than major

262
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,000
which comes back to your point about how it's a time thing, rather than a quality thing.

263
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,000
So what kind of things did they ask you?

264
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:20,000
So some questions that they asked me were very specific, and I think that a lot of the time when people are prepping for the viva

265
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:26,000
what they want to know is what questions you ask, what questions you ask. And as a kind of what what questions am I going to be asked?

266
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,000
Whereas actually that there isn't a kind of apart from the warm up questions like.

267
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,000
So tell us a little bit about your argument or how you came to do this research.

268
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:41,000
The questions are so detailed and so specific that it's very difficult to kind of compare notes,

269
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,000
as it were, across different Vivas and across different topic areas.

270
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:51,000
Yes. So my question, for example, on my certain.

271
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:58,000
Lack of criticality in accepting a characterisation of Anglo norman literature as precocious

272
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:03,000
would probably not come up in most people's vivas to give an example of a very specific question.

273
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:10,000
However, the kind of general sentiment behind that would come up, which is a certain lack of political distance in adopting critical terms.

274
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:20,000
Yet another example of that. The first question I was asked in the entire Viva was.

275
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,000
How do you think your writing style affected Your argument?

276
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,000
Wow. Not that I have to say that's not what I've heard before or words to that effect.

277
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:42,000
And it came back to a tendency in my writing generally actually to set up binaries and work to

278
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000
problematise, them? That's diving in at the deep end.

279
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:53,000
Even though those binaries might not necessarily be accurate.

280
00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:00,000
So I set myself up frameworks within which I have to work, which are occasionally a little bit restrictive in what they allow me to do.

281
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:06,000
And there were several examples of this throughout the thesis. But yes, it was diving in at the deep end.

282
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,000
It was an excellent question. I should add, my internal examiners had also been an examiner for my upgrade.

283
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:20,000
Viva! And what that meant was I was able to make connection between the upgrade viva the feedback and the Viva aims

284
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,000
So to give one example,

285
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:30,000
I would probably need to justify a slight methodological distinction between Chapter one and the rest of the thesis.

286
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:36,000
Chapter one is quite linguistic in its approach. The rest of the chapters are much more traditionally literary.

287
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:43,000
And in justifying that I went back to the feedback that I received in my upgrade viva from my upcoming internal examiner,

288
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:52,000
who suggested that I need to develop a methodology that ranges beyond the close reading to embrace theoretical insights related to my materials.

289
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,000
And I use the linguistic chapter as an example of how one might do that.

290
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:06,000
There were others throughout, of course, but that's an example of how the experience of the upgrade Viva actually helped me to develop the

291
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:13,000
viva itself when it came to sitting down in front of that same examiner again three years later.

292
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,000
That's really brilliant. And so what you know, you said that the questions are very specific.

293
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:26,000
And, you know, you had one about the writing style and kind of setting binaries and dichotomies and theoretical frameworks.

294
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,000
What other what other topic areas were the questions they asked you in?

295
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:37,000
So the question's broadly fail into sort of three groups, if you like.

296
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:43,000
They were often focussed around specific points in the thesis of why you characterised X as Y.

297
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:52,000
But for the broad trends, questions included why I chose to cover certain types of text in my thesis and not others.

298
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:58,000
So is that to do with my primary data kind of thing? Yes. Is to do with what my what my source material.

299
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:07,000
Yes. Yes. And also why not others related to that was why I'd chosen to focus on texts in French of mediaeval England as opposed to,

300
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000
say, continental French material. And there were good answers to both of those.

301
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,000
One one acceptable answer is simply scope.

302
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:21,000
But there were also more discipline specific reasons, as well as to why the French in mediaeval England is worthy of study in its own right.

303
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,000
Yes, there were theoretical questions about the frameworks that I'd used.

304
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,000
So, for example, how I was how I was using certain tools from manuscript studies.

305
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,000
So to to look at some of these mediaeval books.

306
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:41,000
But one thing that stuck out at me was the tendency for the examiners to very kindly divide their feedback into kind of corrections and comments.

307
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:46,000
So did they articulate that in the in the viva? Were they making very clear what was a correction?

308
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,000
What were the comments? What they said was they would produce two reports effectively.

309
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000
OK. And what they did in the end was use one report with a preface to all of the all

310
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,000
of the kind of things to highlight for possible future publication with comment.

311
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000
And they were they saying that in the main body of the viva or just in the kind of feedback that.

312
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,000
No, they said fairly early on in the viva as well.

313
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,000
But I didn't know stage by stage as they went through what was what.

314
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,000
No, but that's a massive hint. It is.

315
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,000
And I was very fortunate in that respect.

316
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,000
And I know that's not that I may not be standard practise, although, of course, it's that there is no such thing as standard practise for either.

317
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,000
No. A lot of the time, you know, if if they think that it's, you know, there's nothing to worry about,

318
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000
they will try their best to kind of indicate that to you in various ways,

319
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:38,000
like saying, you know, well, when you think about publishing this or they're not specific things to do with the examination and the outcome.

320
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000
But there are ways to kind of guide you towards or at least sort of reassure you that this is going to be all right.

321
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000
Don't worry. That's true. Although that doesn't necessarily mean that the comments for publication are Minor.

322
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,000
It's worth noting that the one of my comments,

323
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:57,000
if I want to publish one thing I these do is seriously reconsider the methodology behind one of my chapters.

324
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,000
Yeah. That does not make it ineligible at PhD level for an award.

325
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:10,000
No, but it was a an interesting sort of critical reflection on what might be needed to do how and when.

326
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,000
And I get the impression I'll be using the corrections that I've got.

327
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,000
Which Examiners is also worth stressing produce have to produce a written report on Viva with a list of corrections,

328
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,000
including typos that they would like you to make.

329
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:32,000
I'm going to be using this list of corrections for at least the next year rather than just to kind of get myself to the next hurdle,

330
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,000
which would be submitting my revisions. So where are you in the process now?

331
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:45,000
I'm currently at the stage of making the revisions that I have to make with a view to submitting them before Christmas.

332
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:57,000
If all goes well, it's an exciting time. I mean, I'm I'm very lucky in that the feedback that I've got is comprehensive, which means that I can.

333
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:06,000
Reflect on them. And there's plenty of material left to work with. So the report you've got are the corrections very specific?

334
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,000
Yes, they are indicated by page. Oh, wow. So I'll I'll give an example.

335
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Yes. By all means. Yes. So. So, for example, I have on page 22 a comment saying,

336
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000
why is the Anglo norman text society unusually assiduous as opposed to various other text editing bodies?

337
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,000
And then a wonderful comment here. Very few adverbs earned their place in prose.

338
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:38,000
And then you open up a can of worms worth scrutinising the impulse to use an adverb in most cases, and almost always an improvement to edit them out.

339
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,000
That's a very specific comment, but also a much broader idea about my writing style, which I very much appreciate it.

340
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,000
So you're working through the report? Yes, absolutely.

341
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000
Enjoying turns of phrase like that is taking into account to make the thesis better.

342
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:02,000
That's one of the most exciting things, actually, about it. It's not just a question of taking another hoop to jump through.

343
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,000
It's about engaging again with something that I spent four years of my life very close to and developing

344
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:15,000
in collaboration with people who've read it very closely and have provided very detailed feedback.

345
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,000
So how much longer do you think you have to do on the corrections?

346
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,000
Not a huge amount more. I've had the meeting with my supervisor to discuss it on stage.

347
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:31,000
I'm starting to make the minor corrections, some of them I can make immediately.

348
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,000
A lot of them are typos.

349
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:40,000
I have a list that I provided, a list in the viva itself, which got some went some way to suggesting that I there would be minor changes.

350
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:46,000
What the major ones I would hope. I'm anticipating I should get it done before Christmas, as I say.

351
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:51,000
And that's alongside other work that I am taking on the moment as well.

352
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,000
And I guess that's that's the final question.

353
00:35:53,000 --> 00:36:03,000
What next or afterwards when you finally get that email that says, Dear Dr. Edward Mills, what are you gonna be doing?

354
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:08,000
Probably doing a happy little dance around the kitchen is the honest answer to that.

355
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,000
First of all, good. I'm very, very fortunate to be involved in some some postdoc work.

356
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,000
And, um, I'm exploring my options at the moment. If anyone needs Star Trek, translated into Anglo Norman French.

357
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000
I strongly encourage you to contact me. Oh, wow. I really.

358
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,000
I've done this. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah, it's niche. But then niche is kind of a PhD anyway, isn't it.

359
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:39,000
It really is. So you you said earlier on that in the run up to your viva, you asked people that you knew that had done vivas

360
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:47,000
What kind of advice they had ans. What would you do now that you've had your viva?

361
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:53,000
What would you say? What are you going to say when inevitably other students ask you that question?

362
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,000
Not any piece of advice, but something that I didn't believe at first.

363
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:05,000
Everyone says going into the PhD viva either you're the expert, you're the expert, you're the expert.

364
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,000
I did not believe that. No-one does. Well, few people believe that.

365
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:18,000
But as someone who didn't think that he was the expert until he was given some positive feedback in the viva.

366
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:23,000
And who even now really doubts that he knows anything at all.

367
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:29,000
You are the expert. You really are. And if you can believe that even slightly before the viva,

368
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,000
you put yourself in a much stronger position to take criticism and take comments on board for what they are,

369
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:42,000
which is not attempts to bring you down for the sake of it. But attempts in good faith to improve a piece of work that.

370
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:50,000
The examiners, in all likelihood, really enjoyed reading. Thank you so much, Edward, for taking the time to talk to me again,

371
00:37:50,000 --> 00:38:01,000
particularly during the busy period of doing those corrections alongside other work, which I am sure he is eager to get done as quickly as possible.

372
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:32,885
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to, like, rare and subscribe and join me next time whn I'll be talking to someone else about researchers, development, and everything in between

 

Publishing your research as a book with Dr. Jonathan Doney

In this episode I talk to Dr. Jonathan Doney, Lecturere at the University of Exeter about the process of getting his PhD and postdoc research published as a book. 

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome, R, D And the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Hello and welcome to this episode of T, F and the In Betweens. I'm delighted this episode to be talking to my colleague, Dr. Jonathan Doney.

4
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:44,000
Jonathan and I are gonna be talking about publishing research as a book and

5
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000
specifically being unsuccessful in trying to get your thesis published as a book.

6
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:59,000
But thinking about how that material and the learning from the process of failure or rejection can inform other opportunities further down the line.

7
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:04,000
So, Jonathan, are you happy to introduce yourself? I'm Dr. Jonathan Doney

8
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,000
I'm a lecturer in education at the School of Education, University of Exeter.

9
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,000
And my specialism in teaching is history of education and education policy.

10
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:26,000
All right. Thank you very much. And so we we're going to talk today a little bit about experiences of kind of book publishing processes,

11
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,000
because one of the things that particularly humanities and social science students,

12
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:37,000
when they come out of that research degree, often thinking about the kind of, you know, can I publish my thesis as a book?

13
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,000
And that is something that you tried to do. Is that right? That's right.

14
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,000
Yeah. With without a huge success, I would say.

15
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:52,000
But I did learn a lot of lessons from from that process, which I'm willing, willing and happy to share.

16
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:59,000
So how did when you decided that you were when you were thinking about publishing your thesis as a book, what kind of.

17
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,000
How did you go about investigating whether or not that was possible?

18
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000
OK, so that might be helpful to give a bit of background and context to my sort of wider academic networks involvement,

19
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:23,000
because I at that point, I had been a co-editor of a journal in the history of education with my supervisor.

20
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:29,000
We shared it. And so I was kind of used to dealing with editors.

21
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000
Understanding the process of peer review and things like that.

22
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:40,000
And I got in touch with a couple of people from different publishing houses who were very keen.

23
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:48,000
You know, you've just done a PhD. We would love to publish it. They tended to be I think the term used is vanity publisher.

24
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:56,000
So these publishers where you pay a large sum of money and they publish your book as a monograph.

25
00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:02,000
First of all, I didn't have a large sum of money because I've just been a grad student for three years.

26
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:11,000
But also, I was warned by by my  sort of academic champions that what you really need is a book that is published by a reputable company.

27
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:20,000
So go to Palgrave, go to Routledge, go to someone like that and see if they'll publish it.

28
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:26,000
So I approached I approached someone I knew at palgrave, and they said, oh, yes, we got a lot of this kind of thing.

29
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:39,000
Here are some information about how to basically how to show us that you are preparing a book and not just changing a couple of words in a thesis.

30
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,000
I think that was really useful because, you know, a thesis is written for examiners and no one else really.

31
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000
I mean, maybe those who who love you or who you love might read the acknowledgements.

32
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:55,000
But on the whole, a thesis is written with the examiners in mind that they are your audience.

33
00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:01,000
And so the suggestion really was that you don't just say, let's change a few bits.

34
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:08,000
You actually take the content of your thesis and restructure it, maybe rework it.

35
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:13,000
So instead of thinking what I'm gonna do is quickly convert a thesis into a book.

36
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,000
Actually, what you do is think I'm going to write a book for which I already have the bulk of the content,

37
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:25,000
but I need to express some of that in different ways. I need to give a different sort of introduction.

38
00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:32,000
Maybe I need to express some of the findings in more in broad terms for a wider audience.

39
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:45,000
So I sort of sat down with this guidance and prepared the proposal, which was basically my PhD for a different audience, My PhD is

40
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000
quite different from a lot of PhDs because my main contribution to knowledge is a methodological one.

41
00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,000
So might be PdD basically started off as a historical enquiry that ended up being.

42
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:09,000
Here's a new method for undertaking historical enquiry. But I'd frame in the in the material I submitted, first of all, I framed it as the content.

43
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:17,000
The history of religious education, that's got a very short list of people who'd want to read it.

44
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:24,000
And so far, in preparation for this podcast, I looked back at some of the feedback I got on my initial thing,

45
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000
and it was, you know, this is a really interesting method. It's a very interesting proposal.

46
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:35,000
But the audience is so limited that we can't suggest that it's printed.

47
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:44,000
So the sense I had was I'd miss the target. Because what what book publishers want is something that's gonna sell.

48
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,000
Because that's how to make their money.

49
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:55,000
The history of R.E. in the 1960s in England, however much I want it to be the case, is never going to be in the top 10 in the Times.

50
00:05:55,000 --> 00:06:03,000
Weelend supplements. So the feedback, as I say, was, you know, it's interesting but not interesting enough.

51
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:12,000
It's too niche. It's too specialised. I spoke to another a couple of other editors and they said, you know, broadly speaking,

52
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:19,000
the fundamental thing that editors, you know, commissioning editors looking for is will this sell?

53
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:28,000
Will it be a textbook? So actually, what I did is looked again at the content.

54
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:36,000
And said, I don't think I would buy that book. To be honest. What did that feel like for them to come back and sort of basically say.

55
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,000
Yeah, it's interesting, but it's not interesting enough, given that you kind of dedicate three years of your life to this work.

56
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,000
And obviously you do find it interesting and there are many other people to find interesting, obviously.

57
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:54,000
Well, I wouldn't say many others, Kelly, but few I think on the one hand,

58
00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,000
I was I obviously I was disappointed because my my career plan was finished at the PhD

59
00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:10,000
publish a monograph be the expert, get a job, you know, easy pathway to Professorial appointment.

60
00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,000
I think I think I agreed with some of the feedback, which shocked me slightly.

61
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:22,000
I mean, I know I know that my area is niche and I know that it's very specialised.

62
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:27,000
Now, obviously, I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight, since then, I've had a book contract and I've submitted a manuscript.

63
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:33,000
So that is obviously going to change. Changed my view on the feedback.

64
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:41,000
I think what I also learnt what what I also felt with some of the feedback was it's actually very personal.

65
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:49,000
And I've since discovered that both for that and an unsuccessful submission for the later book were sent to

66
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:59,000
people in my field because my field is narrow who think that my cutting edge approach is inappropriate.

67
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:07,000
And so some of the feedback was actually quite personal. I'm not that was difficult to deal with because it was it was the typical reviewer two.

68
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:15,000
You know, if I was writing this book, I would have written something else. And the reasons I would have written those is because you're wrong.

69
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:21,000
So that that was harder. I think that the rejection per say, if that makes sense.

70
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:28,000
That's a really important thing to acknowledge, is kind of, you know, you appreciate that you agree with some of the feedback.

71
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:35,000
But also, you know, even though we we talk about kind of peer review as this wonderful objective,

72
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:44,000
kind of idealised process, actually it is incredibly subjective. Fast forward a little bit then to the book.

73
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:53,000
That you're working on now, say. This is come out of the original book that you proposed out of your thesis that.

74
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,000
Had that wasn't accepted. That's right, isn't it? Yeah.

75
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:07,000
I mean, it's kind of it's a development in two ways. So first of all, I applied and was successful in getting a British Academy postdoc fellowship.

76
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:18,000
After my PhD and that project was basically to take the method that I devised in my PhD and use it in a broad sweep of education policy,

77
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:22,000
still focussed on religious education, but rather than just one event.

78
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:28,000
Looking at a series of events from nineteen forty four to the present day.

79
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000
And so that that sort of expanded the horizon.

80
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:42,000
But also as part of that, there was an opportunity to be published through the British Academy imprint, which is with Oxford University Press.

81
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:51,000
So I applied for that opportunity. And again, the feedback, the feedback from one reviewer was, you know, this is really interesting,

82
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:57,000
potentially very important methodology could be useful across a broad spectrum of policy areas.

83
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000
And another one was basically this is this is not a good idea.

84
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:11,000
This is completely inappropriate. Straight. You know, I'm disappointed that the writer has not referred to the work of Scholar X.

85
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:17,000
That Scholar X, being the person who done the review, is the typical kind of you haven't done what I would have done.

86
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000
Yes. So the British Academy said no.

87
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:29,000
Which was disappointing again, because obviously having an Oxford University publication would have been a good career starter.

88
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:36,000
But what I did is I took I took the proposal that I prepared for that to another publisher.

89
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:46,000
I don't think I changed any of it and simply said, please don't send it to Scholar X for review.

90
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,000
And because, you know, I was advised that that is possible.

91
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,000
And I thought, you know, and I said, you know, if you need more information about why, they were like, no, that's fine.

92
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:59,000
You know, we recognised that there were people who are not appropriate. So we sent it to others.

93
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:07,000
And it came back with, you know, a couple of suggestions of how I might slightly improve the text along the lines of,

94
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,000
you know, some of the work I've done is international comparison.

95
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:17,000
And then one of the comments was just make the reason for the international comparison a little bit more obvious.

96
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:25,000
But otherwise, they accepted it. They wanted to change the title and the title they proposed

97
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:33,000
I was not happy with. And I was I was stuck because I thought, well, you know, I'm on the cusp of a monograph.

98
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,000
Contract. Do I want to argue about the title? Well, I do.

99
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,000
I care about the title and they accepted the title I suggested.

100
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,000
So both in the title and in the content of the book,

101
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:53,000
the book is now very much a methodological explanation and guide to statement archaeology, which is my thing.

102
00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:07,000
Yeah. And it uses a series of case studies from RE, two of which came from the page day and two of which are more recent work as part of the postdoc.

103
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:13,000
So in that respect, significant elements of the PhD are now included in the monograph,

104
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:20,000
a couple of other bits I've published separately as journal articles. And the method,

105
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000
the method sort of which begins and ends is that the monograph to be published early

106
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,000
next year hopefully is just an extension of the material I've prepared for the PhD.

107
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:36,000
So it kind of feels like it is the monograph from the thesis with a couple of bits at it.

108
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:42,000
But it's restructured in quite a significant way. So that instead of being a book about the history of R.E.,

109
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:51,000
it's a book about statement archaeology and the history of RE is the basis of the worked examples, but all the way through it's as you know.

110
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000
And think about how you would use this in your study. This is the kind of question that I have asked here.

111
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,000
What kind of question would you ask? And so on. So it is quite a different beast now from what it was.

112
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:13,000
And I think I think because of why it has a better position in the market and will be useful to to people who are interested in RE

113
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:20,000
And I think it's that that's seems to be say the things that when I talk to people like that this is published,

114
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,000
that's this this seems to be the core of it is actually, you know,

115
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,000
it's you hope it might just be changing a few words here and there, but it's actually,

116
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,000
in a lot of cases, a complete reframing because like you said, you write a thesis for your examiners.

117
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:39,000
It's for a very particular audience in a very particular and go.

118
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,000
And so it's constructed in a very particular way. And if you were kind of wanting to reach the wider academic audience,

119
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:53,000
but also the kind of potentially the wider, you know, a student and or public audience, actually,

120
00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:05,000
a lot of people are reframing the work based on what is what is more of interest to the field rather than kind of the requirements of examination.

121
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:12,000
I think that's absolutely right. And I think I would encourage people when they're thinking about how to develop their thesis

122
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:18,000
into a book is is think about as many different possible groupings who might be interested.

123
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:25,000
So, I mean, like I say, my book is primarily a methodological handbook with a lot of stuff about religious education policy,

124
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:33,000
but actually the audience that would be interested. You've got masters level students undertaking their own research projects, PhD students

125
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:41,000
but you've also got historians of education policy makers and policy shapers, people who are interested in social history.

126
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,000
You know, there's quite a lot of social history and contextualising some of these policy moves,

127
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,000
initial teacher trainees who are going to go into the humanities.

128
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:57,000
So think as broadly as possible about who might read your book and how you can sort of tick as many boxes.

129
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,000
And one of the big things I say, you know, from experience is if there's an international market.

130
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,000
So I think I added a paragraph about the US.

131
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,000
I've got quite a lot of stuff in there already about Scandinavia, because that's where I do my comparison.

132
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,000
That ticks an international box,

133
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:19,000
which which keeps publishers happy because they can then think about marketing this book beyond beyond our own shores,

134
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:26,000
whether it's into Europe or the US or any sort of Anglophone type country.

135
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:34,000
So think broadly and then kind of write in a way that tickles the ears of those sorts of people.

136
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:41,000
It is going from the very specific niche kind of contribution that you make in the thesis.

137
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:49,000
And broadening back out again, kind of doing, almost doing, going in the opposite direction to what you've been.

138
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,000
Well, you've been doing for a number of years. I think so, yeah.

139
00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:01,000
I mean, I know some of the some of the books, the monographs that I've read that have been theses.

140
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,000
They maintain the level of detail that PhD thesis requires.

141
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:17,000
But they contextualise it differently if that makes sense. Whereas I think probably I would argue for mine, I, I stepped back from some of the detail.

142
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:24,000
For example, you know, I had five or six thousand words just on how Foucault does historical enquiry.

143
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:29,000
Now most sane people would say that's too much in a thesis, let alone a book.

144
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,000
I think I've got a page and a half in the book about it.

145
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:38,000
I mean, the other thing that you can do, which I did quite often, is where you where you don't want to move away from the detail.

146
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:48,000
You can write in general terms in the book and you can reference your PhD because with, you know, the library there available for people to consult.

147
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:56,000
Absolutely. And so you don't have to give up that sense of of the detail and the richness and the integrity of what you did.

148
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:03,000
Thinking a little bit more about the process, because I think that's something that feels really almost mystical to people.

149
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:10,000
So you sent in a proposal. So what kind of format did that take?

150
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,000
So most publishing houses that I'm aware of will publish their format.

151
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000
You know, if you look look on the Web site for all, you know,

152
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:24,000
authors submission to and then your chosen publisher, yeah, they will usually have some kind of pro forma.

153
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:33,000
And is it you know that there are similarities. So, you know, I proposed title give a 300 word description of what the book is.

154
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:43,000
You usually have to give chapter outlines, you know, chapter title, what the chapter will cover, how many words you expect it to be.

155
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,000
And quite a lot of stuff about intended audience. Yeah.

156
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:53,000
And also an analysis of competitor. Competitor titles.

157
00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:03,000
So by being in the system of submitting author, I've also been asked to review a few publications in my field and proposals.

158
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,000
And some of them, you know, this is this is the only book on this topic.

159
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000
It's essential because it's core reading for these modules and others.

160
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:19,000
You get a list of fifteen or twenty competitor titles and nothing about why this is different.

161
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:28,000
Yeah, I think those kind of really those kind of marketing positioning in the market kind of questions are quite important.

162
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:37,000
And I guess if that's got a lot of similarities to how you position the the scholarship is kind of filling a.

163
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,000
A gap is as having originality.

164
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:48,000
It's just thinking about it in less in terms of original contribution to knowledge as it is to mark, as is thinking about the market.

165
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:54,000
It's a sounds like it's doing something very similar. I think it's a similar kind of approach in the mind.

166
00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:00,000
You know, that's the kind of thing you have to think of. Why what is it that I'm going to do that either hasn't been done before?

167
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,000
Or I mean, one thing that I've seen quite often is books that have been published 30 years ago.

168
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000
There are key texts here, you know, are out of date.

169
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:16,000
And this this will update the established scholarship in the field, kind of saying.

170
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:23,000
So those kinds of things are important. I was very lucky because because of my sort of contacts,

171
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:33,000
I had someone who had recently submitted a successful book proposal to Oxford University Press, and they sent me their proposal.

172
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:41,000
And obviously, the topics were completely different. The structure was different. But you kind of get an idea of what kind of things make this.

173
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:46,000
It's a bit like doing a funding bid or an application for a funded PhD

174
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,000
You know, if you look at successful ones, you kind of get an idea of what what works.

175
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:57,000
Yeah. So I would encourage, you know, particularly early career academics if they're looking for that.

176
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:06,000
Ask your ask your existing networks, even if their fields are slightly different or their topics are slightly different.

177
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:12,000
And I'm always willing to share my my proposals both for funding and for publication,

178
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,000
because I think one of the ways we learn how to do it is by looking at ones that I've worked, say.

179
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,000
You submit the proposal, they got back and said, yep, no, no.

180
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,000
Oh, no. If only it was as easy as that. So I submitted.

181
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,000
I submitted to Routledge and Routledge, published on their website.

182
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:37,000
Who they're commissioning editors are for different fields now because of a project I'd worked on with other colleagues.

183
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:48,000
There is someone who worked in religious education. So what I did first was sent the proposal to him and said, I realise this may not be your field,

184
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,000
but, you know, could you have a quick look because there was already some kind of relationship.

185
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,000
Could you have a quick look and or let me know who I should send it to? Yeah.

186
00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:02,000
And he said, oh, yes, the person you need is my colleague so-and-so. So I sent it to her.

187
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:09,000
I actually see she used the policy editorial lead because that's where the book has been.

188
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,000
That's another thing to sort of perhaps come back to is where do you position your book?

189
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:20,000
Yeah. So she had a quick look at it and said, let's have a quick chat.

190
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:27,000
There was an initial just one to one conversation with her, and she said, I think, you know, add some detail to this, maybe change there.

191
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:33,000
Be open to the possibility of the title being being adapted.

192
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:39,000
Once I'd done that, she then takes it to the editorial board meeting.

193
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,000
You know, with her support, they came back with a couple of suggestions.

194
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:51,000
Sorry. And in between that, I discussed it with her. Then it went to review and I had the reviewers comments back to me.

195
00:21:51,000 --> 00:22:03,000
Yeah. To change the proposal before it went to the editorial board and the editorial board agreed it subject to a change of title.

196
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,000
And then once once they agreed and you've agreed with them the changes,

197
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:16,000
you get offered a contract and the contract is to produce the manuscript within a given amount of time.

198
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:26,000
So how long did that take between, say, between the kind of initial contact and getting the contract?

199
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:30,000
So I think the initial contact was January, and I signed the contract in September.

200
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:39,000
Wow. Now, that's partly because my commissioning editor was off sick for a while, but I mean, that's not an unusual.

201
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000
It's not an unusual timescale, particularly if there is a bit of to ing and fro ing.

202
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:53,000
Yeah. And I think it also depends on the publishing house, because I think some some that have big structures,

203
00:22:53,000 --> 00:23:03,000
you might send it to the person you think and they they without you knowing, send it on to a colleague before it even gets any kind of indication.

204
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:11,000
It's a really important thing to be aware of that actually, when it comes to book publishing, things can move incredibly slowly.

205
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000
Yeah, I think I think that's right.

206
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:23,000
And I think I mean, if it taking the whole thing from when I first approached that publisher, which was what do we know, it was January.

207
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:31,000
Twenty, eighteen. And I I have just finished completing the page proofs in the last couple of days.

208
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,000
Wow. So there'll still be another month or so before it goes to press.

209
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:43,000
Yes. But, you know, obviously part of that time I've been writing the book.

210
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:50,000
Because one thing I didn't want to do, what some people do is they write the book and then they submit a proposal and then they might

211
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:57,000
have to do quite a lot of changing according to what proposal changes the editorial board require.

212
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:04,000
Whereas I had the structure of the book in my mind and then I've written it according to the proposal, we've agreed.

213
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,000
So I guess I've got two questions. And on that say, I mean.

214
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:14,000
Even though you have the structure, you you know, you hadn't written the thing as a as a whole before you went to proposal.

215
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:23,000
It sounds like from your from your the you from your PhD n and from the that you wrote it on you.

216
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:28,000
I'm guessing you had quite a reasonable amount of text already.

217
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,000
I had the basis of a lot of the time. I mean, for the two chapters that came from the PhD

218
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,000
It wasn't a copy. Copy and paste job. But it wasn't it wasn't a starting from scratch.

219
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:45,000
There were chunks, particularly chunks of primary evidence that I did just copy and paste across.

220
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:56,000
But I think what I would say is before I said send the book's proposal in, I knew what I'd found and I knew what the structure of the arguments were.

221
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:05,000
Yeah. Because, you know, I think for for this route, the book chapter summaries were about four or five hundred words per chapter.

222
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,000
Yeah, but you need to know enough about what you're gonna say.

223
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:17,000
What's your supporting evidence to be able to test to satisfy them that it's not just a you know, you can't be too general.

224
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:23,000
You have to be specific. Yeah. I'll talk about this act. I'll talk about these policymakers in the process.

225
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,000
When did you actually start writing the book? Did you wait until you got the contract or did you start kind of earlier?

226
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000
What I think.

227
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:42,000
I'd started writing a book a while ago, probably after I finished my PhD, because because I knew that there were bits I wanted to publish.

228
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,000
So in terms of sort of text on page, I suppose by the time I submitted the proposal,

229
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:54,000
I might have had forty thousand words written out of eighty five thousand total.

230
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000
Okay. So yeah, sort of with half of the book written.

231
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:02,000
I mean a lot of that was just plain old as it says in this paragraph.

232
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,000
Describe in this paragraph account for. Yeah.

233
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:14,000
And then you kind of fill those gaps in. But I was I'd heard stories of people who'd written a book.

234
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:21,000
Written a proposal based on the book they'd written, had the proposal talked around and accepted, and then they basically were starting again anyway.

235
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000
Yeah, I thought the sensible thing was just, you know, it's bad enough write in one book.

236
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,000
I certainly did want away two for the price, you know, two books for one publication.

237
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:37,000
If that makes sense, you've got to be you've got to be persuasive enough to the publisher that they think.

238
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,000
I won't say they think you finish the book, but they think you can write the book.

239
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:49,000
And also, I didn't take before with a proposal. I had to send a completed chapter as an exemplar of my writing.

240
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:55,000
And that was one of the chapters that I'd already adapted from the PhD And that was that was okay.

241
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:01,000
So by the time you getting to the point of writing and you've done the proposal, you submit the example chapter,

242
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:08,000
you've had all of these back and forth conversations, like you said, you've got such a clear idea of of where the market's going.

243
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,000
It's then kind of sitting down and doing the thing.

244
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:24,000
So we will momentarily we will gloss over the process of writing as if it it's an, you know, click your fingers magically.

245
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:33,000
It happened. So at what point did you send kind of drafts to your editor?

246
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:45,000
So I. I didn't. They they issued a contract and initially my contract was for the complete book to be ready in April this year.

247
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:56,000
OK. Once we got towards April, I sent a very, very nice email that said, you know, this is this is not going to happen by April.

248
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,000
Can I have till July?

249
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:07,000
And because I also wanted to push back the publication date for for strategic reasons, I didn't want the book published in the current REF cycle.

250
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,000
I wanted it published in the next REF cycle. So they said, well, yeah, bearing in mind you're not in a hurry to have it.

251
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Then we're happy to put the date back. So I submitted the whole manuscript in July.

252
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:30,000
Yeah. And in the process after that is that, first of all, the editor who has commissioned the work reads the piece.

253
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:36,000
Yes. Basically to check that you've supplied what you agreed. Yes, of course.

254
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,000
So I think it was three or four week turnaround.

255
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:47,000
And I have an e-mail from her saying, you know, you've not only supplied what we asked for, but it's extremely well-written and very engaging.

256
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:57,000
Yes. Which is a technical book on a documentary analysis technique, I think is I said, can I put your comment on the back in the blurb?

257
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,000
Then it goes to copyediting that they then send back questions like, you know,

258
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,000
you've sometimes you've used ize, sometimes you use ise, which should it be throughout?

259
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:15,000
They ask questions about missing references or references are incomplete.

260
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:24,000
That takes about a month. Yeah. Then it goes to typesetting, and I think that took about another month.

261
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:33,000
So the best in a sense, the bits that they do take about a month, six weeks at a time, and then you get an email saying, hey, is your galley proofs.

262
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:39,000
Please let us have them back in three days. Oh, wow. Which I responded.

263
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,000
Thank you very much for the opportunity. I will have them within the next fortnight.

264
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,000
And so far it's been. Oh yes, of course. That's fine. Don't.

265
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Don't be afraid to say to your publisher. Hang on a minute. You know, that's not a realistic timescale.

266
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,000
So the situation at the moment is that I've got I've got the marked up proofs I need to enter the

267
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:11,000
corrections onto the system and then I won't see the text again until I get physical copies delivered.

268
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,000
So there's no sort of submission of drafts along the way.

269
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:20,000
Certainly in my experience, I don't know how other publishers work, but my sense is that they're not interested.

270
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,000
Once they've awarded the contract, what they want is the finished text.

271
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:32,000
Yeah. So. At what point or is there a point at which it is going to go out to?

272
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Review is again, so obviously the proposal went through a peer review process. But does the book, the manuscript as a whole.

273
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,000
Go out for a full review in any way? Well, with this one, no.

274
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,000
I've got friends who have published with Palgrave or when they submitted the

275
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,000
manuscript that was read by a couple of external readers before it was accepted.

276
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,000
Now, obviously,

277
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:07,000
my take on that is my book is such a close resemblance with the book that I was contracted to write that it didn't need to go out to review,

278
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,000
or it may simply be that that's just a delay in the process.

279
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:19,000
And, you know, usually there's some kind of reward, I suspect. So, you know, it costs it takes time.

280
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:26,000
I think that might vary by publisher. It's important to say that there will always be variations in inexactly.

281
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,000
How publishers deal with entry is different. These different elements say.

282
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,000
So the next time you see you see it, it's going to be. A physical copy.

283
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,000
It's gonna be a physical copy with. With covers and a title on it.

284
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:48,000
Which is gonna be quite scary, but also exciting. So have you seen things like cover art or anything?

285
00:31:48,000 --> 00:32:01,000
Yeah, I am. I was hoping I. I've got a friend who's got a picture that was painted by a relative after that relative had read some of Foucaults work.

286
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,000
And it's an amazing picture. I was hoping that that could be the cover of the book.

287
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:18,000
Because it's got that link with Foucault's theory. But I was sent a bland collection of 12 different covers from which I could choose one.

288
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:23,000
So I chose in consultation with my artistic director, my daughter.

289
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:29,000
I chose one. And they said, yeah, we can't use that one on your book because that's for a different series.

290
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:42,000
So in the end, I cover I've got it's not the one I've chosen, but it has the kind of corporate link with books in policy,

291
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,000
which is useful for me because I kind of wanted to position this more in policy

292
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,000
than in sort of religious education theology or anything else like that.

293
00:32:51,000 --> 00:33:02,000
So I'm not hugely unhappy with the outcome. But, you know, it shows you how constrained you are as an author about some of these decisions.

294
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,000
Yeah. And I think that the thing you said about the identifying it is so visually as corporately as policy.

295
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:18,000
It's interesting you mentioned that earlier about and about it being part of the policy series and the kind of positioning of the book.

296
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,000
Can you say something a little bit about that?

297
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:30,000
Yeah, I mean, I think so, as I sort of hinted earlier on, religious education, there's not a huge sector of educational research.

298
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:37,000
It's a very niche field. And actually, the work that I do is religious education by accident.

299
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:45,000
My my motivation and my intellectual project, if you like, is about understanding how policy development works in real life.

300
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:54,000
It just so happens that I've worked on religious education because that's where I've had ways in or pre-existing knowledge.

301
00:33:54,000 --> 00:34:02,000
Because I know developing my career as an early career researcher, I want to develop an identity as a policy researcher.

302
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,000
So to me,

303
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:16,000
getting the book published in the policy staple was really important because to have it published is as a religious education book would in a sense,

304
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:26,000
keep me constrained within that very narrow field where I've already established a reputation by moving to a slightly broader intellectual silo.

305
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,000
I suppose there is scope for more development.

306
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000
And it's I mean, it's already led to some interesting discussions about other education policy projects.

307
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:42,000
So it's been successful. But I think I think the piece of advice that I was given, I would pass on when thinking about publication,

308
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,000
if think about what you want your academic identity to focus around.

309
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:52,000
Yeah. Because lots of us do PhDs to a sort of a combination of what we're interested in,

310
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:59,000
but also what we can get funding for, what our supervisors interests are, where where there is a gap.

311
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:07,000
I mean, I think of Einstein as the example because his PhD was nothing to do with theories of relativity.

312
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,000
But that's what he's known for. Yeah. He's not not known for his PhD work, is known for his work afterwards.

313
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,000
And I think it's an opportunity.

314
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Getting a book published is to create an early career researcher is a huge thing and it's a thing that gives you opportunities.

315
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:31,000
So think about the opportunities. Where do I want to be positioned and how do I then get this book of this monograph?

316
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:35,000
How do I then use that as a stepping stone to where I want to be, if that makes sense?

317
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,000
Yeah, absolutely.

318
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:44,000
And within that, I wondered if you could just say a bit more about so you said about delaying it because you didn't want it published.

319
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:49,000
You wanted it published in the next REF cycle. So what was the.

320
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:59,000
What was the rationale for that? OK. So because of the way the REF works, we're all encouraged or demanded to submit,

321
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:04,000
you know, X number of papers at whatever, you know, five For star articles.

322
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:12,000
I know that's ridiculous. But, you know, the pressure is to produce a certain number of For star articles or three star articles within the REF cycle.

323
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:18,000
I'd already I've already achieved that through publications that I've done in the last few years.

324
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:28,000
So if I had got the book published in the current REFcycle, I would have just ended up with, you know, 10 articles from which to choose.

325
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000
And then when the clock resets for the new REF cycle, I would have had nothing.

326
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:42,000
So it was suggested strongly to me, hold the book back. And then that gives you a starting point for the next REF's cycle.

327
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:52,000
You know, you've already got a good solid. Submission sitting on your desk waiting rather than starting from scratch.

328
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,000
So it's simply that that kind of strategic planning.

329
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,000
Yeah, and I think with what you said about kind of how you position yourself.

330
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,000
And how you want to position your academic career?

331
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:15,000
These are incredibly important considerations and particularly with things that like the REF cycle and kind of forward forward planning, I guess.

332
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,000
So what have you learnt from the process of doing the book?

333
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:28,000
I would say I've learnt a lot. You know, I've learnt some some fairly fundamental practical skills, like if you're going to write a book.

334
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,000
You have to change the way that you live. To make it possible.

335
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:45,000
Go. For the the year between getting the contract and submitting the manuscript, I spent the first two hours of every working day working on the book.

336
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,000
OK. Yes. Because it doesn't write

337
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:58,000
You know how much I wanted it to write itself So there's the practical level, I think, on the on the sort of career development level,

338
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,000
you know, the importance of a book I'd completely underestimated. Well, I when it was first suggested, it was like, yeah, you know, well,

339
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,000
I've done a couple of articles, a book, you know, a book will just be another thing like that.

340
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,000
But it's not the way that it's viewed, particularly in terms of job applications and progression.

341
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:20,000
A book is a big thing. And and the all the publication house is a big thing.

342
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:25,000
Yes. So, you know, people were asking me, I interview.

343
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,000
Oh, yeah. You've got your work on a book. Who's publishing it? That was the question before.

344
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,000
What's it about? Yeah. Which I think is interesting.

345
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:40,000
So I've learnt I've learnt that I think I've learnt more about how to negotiate the process of putting together a submission.

346
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Getting comments on it, sending it to the right person. You know, that sort of process your side of things.

347
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:58,000
But I think what I've learnt also is that many of my colleagues are hugely academically generous and also very interested in what I'm doing.

348
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:03,000
I tend to think that my work was so niche that no one else really had any interest.

349
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:12,000
But my colleagues have been hugely supportive, very encouraging. I mean, it's a bit like when you start a new job, you know, how's the job going?

350
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,000
How are you getting on? Anything you need? Maybe like when you do.

351
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,000
Each day when people say instead of saying, have you finished yet?

352
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:25,000
They say, can I give you some money or buy you a meal? It's a bit like that, you know.

353
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,000
How's the book coming on? Yeah, I see it quite encouraging.

354
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:35,000
So. We also have learnt quite a lot about myself because I didn't I didn't believe that I could do PhD

355
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:43,000
I come from a very chequered educational background. But I left school with with few qualifications.

356
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,000
And each time I, you know, I got my degree, I got my masters, I got my PhD

357
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:55,000
Each time I thought, well, I didn't believe I could do it. And in a sense, getting the book finished showed me that I could.

358
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:03,000
Other people around me believed I could, but I didn't always. I think the biggest lesson for me is actually you can.

359
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:10,000
Yeah. And I think the final lesson is don't rush into writing a book.

360
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,000
Because it is a lot of work. It's worth it is hugely rewarding.

361
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000
And, you know, I'm so looking forward to hearing from people who are using the method that I've devised.

362
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:25,000
But there are easier ways to spend your life and work you.

363
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:36,000
So in the process of writing, writing the book, where you finishing the postdoc and starting the job you're in now, we say we I working full time.

364
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:41,000
For about. Six months. No more than six months.

365
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,000
I started my current role as a lecturer in September last year.

366
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:56,000
OK, but September 2019 and I submitted the manuscript in July 2020 and I didn't get the contracts till September.

367
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,000
So most of the time that I was working on the specific book, I've been working full time.

368
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,000
Say, I was think that that kind of doing two hours on it every day, like in the morning,

369
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,000
was that the way that you managed to kind of the balancing of the work?

370
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Yeah. Yeah. Because prior to that, I you know, I spent three years with my postdoc.

371
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:24,000
I spent, you know, working on the book all the time. But, you know, a lot of that was research.

372
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:35,000
You know, archive research, data analysis, redeveloping the method, you know, networking meetings, etc.

373
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:41,000
And I did quite a lot of other projects alongside that kind of teaching other places.

374
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:47,000
So. I did try to have a a day, a week on the book.

375
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:55,000
When I first started this role, but it's it wasn't manageable, partly because I can't write flat out for seven or eight hours ago.

376
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:04,000
Yeah, partly because however much you set aside a day and lock yourself away and turn your e-mail off, people still find you and they still demand,

377
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:10,000
whereas somehow it's more acceptable when people knock on your door eight o'clock in the morning and say, have you got time for a meeting?

378
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,000
You can say I'm free at lunchtime or I'm free later.

379
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:23,000
And that's okay. So, yeah, at this point, I mean, it's sort of one of those things that you achieve it by chipping away a bit at a time.

380
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,000
And for me, a couple of hours a day was the way to do it.

381
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:34,000
I know that for some people they write best, you know, in big, long chunks, maybe at the weekend or they take a day away from the office.

382
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,000
But I think you have to do what works for you.

383
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:44,000
I would also say over the course of the whole project, what works for me has changed at different times.

384
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,000
I should be be responsive to be be okay with that.

385
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000
Thank you so much to Jonathan for a really fascinating discussion about the publishing process, about failure, about rejection,

386
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:10,000
but also about finding and articulating your identity as an early career researcher and and placing yourself within your field, moving forward.

387
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,000
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.

388
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:42,408
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

 

Organising, attending and submitting abstracts to conferences with Victoria Christodoulides

In this episode I talk to Victoria Christodoulides, a PGR at the University of Bath and the University of the West of England about organising, attending and submitting abstracts to conferences. Victoria and I are both on the committee oif the Research Ethics Conference 2021, which currently has a call for papers out. You can find out more on the conference website.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweena.

2
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Hello and welcome to this episode of R,D and the In Betweens. Today, I'm going to be talking to Victoria Christodoulides

4
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,000
who is working with me on the conference committee for a new conference on Research Ethics.

5
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,000
It's gonna be taking place at the University of Exeter next June. During this episode,

6
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,000
we're going to talk about the ethics conference we're involved in and how we kind of

7
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:59,000
got interested in having those wider critical discussions about research ethics,

8
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,000
but also attending and submitting an abstract to your first conference. And some top tips.

9
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:11,000
So if you're new to attending conferences, this will be a really, really good insight into what the experience is like.

10
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:22,000
So, Victoria, are you happy to introduce yourself? My name is Victoria Christodoulides and I am based in the University of Bath,

11
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:29,000
but I work in an interdisciplinary PhD project with UWE as well.

12
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000
So yes, in my second nearly third year.

13
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000
Now of doing doing that. Yeah.

14
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:49,000
Can you tell me a little bit about the project project. So my my project itself is looking at childhood trauma, recovery, literacy.

15
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,000
So the kind of discourses,

16
00:01:51,000 --> 00:02:07,000
narratives that are surround childhood trauma and the recovery practises and really trying to through kind of participatory action research framework,

17
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:21,000
work with survivors to reimagine what recovery and practising recovery could be and how recovery could be understood,

18
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,000
perhaps differently to what it currently is.

19
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:40,000
As it's predominately dominated by what we would classify as the biomedical framework to looking at the psychotherapeutic or medicinal practises,

20
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:47,000
that sounds really fascinating and perhaps unsurprising then that you've become involved with the Research Ethics Conference.

21
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:56,000
Given that, I imagine you're encountering some really deeply complex ethical issues through the course of your research.

22
00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:10,000
Yes. So I did an MRes course, prior to starting my PhD, and that's kind of really when the can of worms opened up for me and ethics.

23
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:19,000
I haven't had any of the kind of I supppose.

24
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,000
The bio medicinal ethical challenges that some people might get.

25
00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,000
But I do get and have had quite a lot of.

26
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,000
Complexity in the the ethics proposals that I have, one being.

27
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:44,000
That's quite it, because it's quite complex projects, because it's an emergent design, participatory action research.

28
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000
I'm going to call it PAR because it's much, much shorter.

29
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:58,000
But the PAR is quite complex framework. So the ethical procedures are quite important.

30
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000
They're more than you know, obviously, they need to be thorough, but they a quite lengthy.

31
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000
Because. Because it's emergent. You have to talk about things that you might include.

32
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:14,000
That might happen. And and that can be quite challenging.

33
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:23,000
But also, there are the challenges around working with what would be classified as a vulnerable population.

34
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:29,000
So you have those kind of ethical challenges as well.

35
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000
And I suppose even more recently, that the things that I'm looking at.

36
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:41,000
And really in the thick of at the moment, because I'm not quite. Haven't quite done my data collection yet.

37
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:52,000
But how to do participatory research in COVID times is quite, quite challenging.

38
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:58,000
So that's obviously some of the challenges involved in your particular research.

39
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:07,000
Yes. Kind of got you. Interested in ethics or considering ethics more broadly in the kind of field of

40
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,000
research and therefore wanting to be involved in the research ethics conference.

41
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:26,000
So I think I would probably say that my experiences of ethics and possibly because the the approach I've taken to the projects

42
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:37,000
that I've been involved in have been maybe a little bit more abstract dealing with vulnerable groups in ways that perhaps

43
00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:49,000
added a little bit more complexity really opened up to me when I was going through the process in it for my ethics applications

44
00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:05,000
just felt like there wasn't a huge amount of guidance or information around around ethics that I felt were fit for purpose.

45
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:16,000
And talking with other students, staff from, you know, not just our university, but, you know, wherever it seemed to go.

46
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:24,000
Even I was in a conference in Barcelona having the same conversations with senior professors who were going,

47
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,000
yeah, no, it's the same with our university, actually.

48
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:34,000
We are, you know, there there's there's all this talk about we need to be providing ethical research.

49
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:43,000
But actually, what does that actually mean? And when I thought about how well, you know, with my introduction to ethics,

50
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000
I can remember one seminar and I appreciate every university may be different,

51
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:57,000
but I remember having one seminar talking about just kind of what we need to think for and having a few things online to go through as a course.

52
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:04,000
And that was pretty much it. But it's so much more complex and I think.

53
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000
Wanted to be involved in the conference was one I.

54
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:17,000
I feel very strongly with my experiences in completing ethics forms and being involved in research that there is

55
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:29,000
so much more to the process of ethics and how our research can be ethically grounded than it is currently.

56
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:38,000
And I think it is often an afterthought. It is often a checklist and it would be great.

57
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:46,000
And through this conference and I can see that being a really strong catalyst for it being

58
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,000
a starting point to kind of extend these conversations and dialogues and going well look

59
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:56,000
you know. Okay, people are getting ethical approval and completing their research.

60
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000
But how can we make that better?

61
00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:07,000
How can we make the researchers more ethically grounded from start to finish of their projects and even before completing it?

62
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,000
But also understanding the process is a bit more what it is that they need to complete.

63
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:18,000
What what you need to think about in terms of provision of information, the information sheets,

64
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:23,000
that you get all sorts of things, but that it can be quite complex and difficult to follow.

65
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:30,000
And I think, you know, as I said, you know, speaking to those people just think it's currently not quite fit for purpose.

66
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:38,000
And I think something like the ethics conference has got so many moving parts that can support that.

67
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:45,000
I think I think that that really excites me to be part of something like.

68
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:56,000
Yeah, absolutely. And I I mean, I feel the same. It's becoming a very different perspective in terms of thinking about the the training

69
00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:01,000
side of that and how we put the support structures in place and where the knowledge sits.

70
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:09,000
So. We're here to talk really about about conferences and perhaps sort of.

71
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,000
Submitting a abstract to a  conference or attending a conference for the first

72
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,000
time to help people thinking about attending the research ethics conference,

73
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:28,000
but also who might be at the start of their research journey and kind of feeling a bit mystified by these magical things called conferences.

74
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:34,000
So can you tell me a little bit about the first time you attended a conference?

75
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:43,000
Oh, the first time in attendance at the conference. Yes, it was during my time as an MRes students.

76
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,000
And I didn't submit an abstract to that one, but I did.

77
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:57,000
For the next one. But  attending the conference. That first time funnily enought felt quite nerve racking.

78
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,000
And I think a lot of things were going through my mind.

79
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,000
One was. You know.

80
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,000
I'm going to be the one that really looks stupid coming to this conference,

81
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:21,000
all these great speakers and professors and people who are more expert in their line of enquiry than I am.

82
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,000
And it kind of initially put me off going.

83
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:29,000
And, you know, I'm glad I pushed through that nervousness,

84
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:34,000
because when I when I have then subsequently gone on to and I think there's always a little bit of that.

85
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:44,000
When you when you come to conferences sometimes is some actually it doesn't really matter.

86
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:58,000
And these conferences really provide a fantastic space, not just for learning, but also networking and being able to ask questions.

87
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,000
That's something you can't you can't necessarily do.

88
00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:13,000
If you're just watching a video or just reading a paper, you you get to maybe ask questions around your own research projects.

89
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:24,000
And, you know, I've had some great opportunities, when I've gone to conferences to speak with people who are more knowledgeable than I am and kind of go

90
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:29,000
Can I borrow five minutes of your time? Most of the time. People are really happy to.

91
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:36,000
And, you know, they're very interested listening to your know your project and kind of go look you know this is the problem I've got.

92
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,000
I'm not you know, I was thinking about what you were saying. You know, I'm not quite sure.

93
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,000
And I actually so many times, it gives you great ideas and sometimes even problems.

94
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000
It's a link about that you haven't thought about before.

95
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:59,000
But they are just such a great space for me to be able to move your ideas and project forwards, whatever that might might be.

96
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:10,000
Yeah. And I think that that kind of sort of imposter syndrome that you have is is really, really common, but also.

97
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:16,000
Sort of against the nature of sort of what conferences are, which is, you know,

98
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:23,000
conferences generally aren't places where you find concrete answers, that they're the places where we.

99
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000
Discuss the complex ideas and try to grapple with them.

100
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,000
And, you know, certainly in terms of presenting at conferences,

101
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:38,000
people aren't necessarily expecting you to have sort of a formal finished product, you know?

102
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:49,000
Yes. Is and conference presentations are a great place to. Explore your ideas and explore how you're collating your ideas and analysing data.

103
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,000
And it's not necessarily about kind of having the finished product,

104
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,000
but about the opportunity to enter into dialogue about where your thinking is at that moment in time.

105
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:03,000
Absolutely. Yeah, I think you're dead. Right. And you know

106
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:18,000
That's the the the beauty really of conferences, I think is my thoughts around going to conferences is that as long as there's a general

107
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:25,000
link or even more of a specific general to specific link to your to your project.

108
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:33,000
And in this case, ethics kind of applies to everybody. The conference that we're going to be holding.

109
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,000
You know, everyone can come. But generally speaking, you know,

110
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:44,000
there'll be conferences which might be a bit more aligned to what you're researching or very specific to an area of work that you're focussing on.

111
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:56,000
But the real beauty about it, as you were saying, is that, you know, there aren't necessarily concrete finished projects.

112
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:02,000
You can actually come with your idea. And I've done that when I when I delivered a presentation.

113
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,000
I kind of was talking about what it is that I wanted to do. And based on some of the work did in my MRes

114
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,000
Right. You know. And so it doesn't it, you know, things that have to be finished.

115
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:25,000
And what's great about that is that there are so many different takes that you can be exposed to and how to approach work.

116
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,000
No, in theories in methodology is all sorts of different things that you can have a look

117
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:38,000
at that you don't necessarily get access to as easily as you may have done before.

118
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:48,000
And I think what's really important about that for or our learning is if we if we only travel down the routes of reading, watching,

119
00:14:48,000 --> 00:15:06,000
engaging with one specific school of thought and one area of work, we actually don't, we actually inhibit our ability to argue our own standpoint.

120
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:13,000
And I believe quite strongly that if we engage with these different perspectives,

121
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:20,000
which you do get at conferences, which is why that's a fantastic really, you get the opportunity to go.

122
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:29,000
I never thought of that. You know, I could argue my point more strongly because of this or actually that's really made me question my perspective.

123
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000
I need to think about strengthening my own argument based on what this person says.

124
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:42,000
Well, that's a great example for me to pull on and use within my my work and make it relevant to what I'm talking about.

125
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:48,000
So, yeah, I'm a strong advocate. Absolutely.

126
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:56,000
And, you know, we're we're talking about doing something at the conference, which is which is very much kind of about not having answers.

127
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:05,000
So it's a discussion panel about how ethical training isn't fit for purpose and  and how

128
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:13,000
we and a kind of exploration by a number of panelists and with the people attending.

129
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000
About what? You know, what we think that.

130
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:26,000
We actually need in terms of training and skills and support to underpin ethical research, practise and, you know,

131
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,000
we're not going with the answers about what we think that training should be, but rather with the open question of going.

132
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,000
We know that what we have is an. Isn't doing the job it needs to.

133
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:41,000
So let's have a conversation. You know, let's start the conversation now.

134
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,000
and not necessarily find the answers, but at least. Kind of.

135
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:50,000
Propel the. Conversation forward.

136
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,000
Yes, exactly. Absolutely, yeah.

137
00:16:53,000 --> 00:17:01,000
And I think, you know, again, great place for a conference is to be able to kind of it's not just about people talking at you.

138
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:09,000
And I think the ethics conference that we're putting together, we've got workshops, you know, supporting 
 with training.

139
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:20,000
We've got a good cooperation with different organisations and businesses as well as, you know, students.

140
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:25,000
And I think, you know, if you take the panel in that we're talking about there around the fit for purpose ethical training,

141
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,000
I think, you know, that's a really good example of,

142
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:38,000
you know, we're not here just talking at people saying this is what we think should change because, you know, we really value being from other people.

143
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:45,000
And, you know, what would be great is we have the same range of people talking on the panel,

144
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:53,000
but having a range of perspectives from the audience to kind of go, hey, that this is my experience, you know?

145
00:17:53,000 --> 00:18:00,000
And, you know, how how can we utilise these experiences to better our processes?

146
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,000
And I think the beauty of ethics and as I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation,

147
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000
is there's been so many people that are expected to from all walks of life.

148
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,000
Who just say the same thing that it's not fit for purpose

149
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:22,000
This could be something that I think should transcend across universities, across the education system for research.

150
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:30,000
And it could be so easily done if we can come together and say easily rolling their eyes.

151
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,000
Not easily. I appreciate it. But there is definitely, I think, a route here.

152
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:42,000
That could be made easier. Yeah, because collectively we have the knowledge.

153
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:47,000
It's just it's sitting in us with so many things that sitting in individual pockets right now.

154
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,000
And yet, you know, the the discussion we're having is about bringing those people together.

155
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000
And on the broader concerns as well about, you know,

156
00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:04,000
working with different groups and businesses and charities and education organisations outside of higher education.

157
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,000
You know, again, it's bringing that breadth of knowledge and understanding together.

158
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,000
And, you know, that is a lot of what research is doing now is about.

159
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:21,000
Absolutely. Interdisciplinary is about connections to industry and practise and bringing together different forms

160
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,000
of knowledge or different kinds of knowledge to give us that sense that something richer.

161
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000
Absolutely, and I think the great thing about this conference is that that we can do that.

162
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:40,000
I think the the bringing the best practises is exactly what I'd love to see happen is I'm sure you know,

163
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:47,000
I know different universities have difficult ethical, different ethical processes as the same departments.

164
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:55,000
I think it's we need to extend those dialogues and conversations to kind of see where is the best practise in a way,

165
00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,000
where can we pull on that improve that across across the board.

166
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000
So I agree Yeah. So. Thinking about.

167
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Abstracts and kind of submitting abstracts to a conference. What was that like?

168
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:24,000
The first time you did it? Oh, so the first time I did it, I, I had basically just started my my p h.

169
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,000
D. So it finished my MRes and just started my PhD

170
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:34,000
And I'd been off to talk because of.

171
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:46,000
They are at her empathy conference regarding empathy in research, and I have been asked to talk because the work that I was doing,

172
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,000
interlinks with concepts of empathy and some of the practises we were doing.

173
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:59,000
And I felt very, very, very out of my depth because, as we mentioned, you know, even though it didn't matter to me,

174
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:07,000
I feel I should be coming to this conversation with these great speakers with, you know, full blown.

175
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:14,000
Here's my project take. My answers, you know, here's the the outcome and what I'm going to do with it.

176
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,000
Hurrah! That was very much. This is just my ideas for my PhD

177
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:33,000
I did base it on some of the work that I'd done within my MRes because how I utilised the MRes for my PhD.

178
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:40,000
So I completed the abstract, I think was.

179
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:46,000
It always seems more daunting than that we really need it, but it really needs to be energy.

180
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:54,000
You pointed out the imposter syndrome really does for me it does raise its ugly head.

181
00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:01,000
But I think when you've got a good structure to follow for the abstract,

182
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:08,000
I think we've got some tips and advice on how to structure that as well as we've got workshops as well,

183
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,000
which I've been really looking forward to to to listen to that's helped people.

184
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:22,000
But I think when you've got those things and I didn't have any access to that, it makes it a lot easier.

185
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:30,000
But I think when you send it off, I think it's always good to get other people to to check it over, see what they think.

186
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,000
Know you got the right idea in how to structure it.

187
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:41,000
Maybe ask your supervisor to have a quick glance if you got any advice or anybody else, you know,

188
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:51,000
who is who who completed abstracts before and after and stuff on kind of, you know, very quickly got a, you know

189
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000
Yes, this sounds great. We would like to have your presentation.

190
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000
And it was then quite a straightforward process for me.

191
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:05,000
I appreciate is different depending on what the conference it is.

192
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,000
But I believe ours is is quite simple for submitting abstracts.

193
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:21,000
But yes, there's always that slight nervousness of submitting something to know because you want you want to be accepted and approached for it.

194
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:32,000
But I would say I think, you know, even the process of writing an abstract.

195
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:39,000
Even if you don't get chosen and there could be a plethora of reasons why you may not be.

196
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:52,000
But even if you're not, the the whole process of working through writing an abstract actually can help you with your own project.

197
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:58,000
And, you know, it is really useful to do because you've got to be succinct.

198
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,000
And it's great, especially even early,

199
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:10,000
early stages of your project to be able to kind of maybe conceptiualise and more concisely what it is that you're doing.

200
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:15,000
And then even further down the line, you've always got some more information that you could pull on.

201
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:25,000
But again, even doing it kind of mid to end of your project or beyond if you're not a PhD student but a fully fledged academic.

202
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:35,000
But if you if you know, it's great to be able just to utilise, as I said, conceptualise your ideas clearly

203
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:42,000
So, again, I'd really welcome anyone at all stages to to engage in that process.

204
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:50,000
Yeah. And I think that thing that you're saying is really key about actually forcing you to hone in

205
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:58,000
on or crystallise some of your ideas on some of those kind of overarching aims or arguments,

206
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:03,000
because so much of what we do in academia is about long form writing.

207
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:09,000
You know, I know that a journal article doesn't necessarily feel like long form writing, but to a lot of people, you know, 6000 words.

208
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000
It's quite a lot.

209
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:23,000
You know, it's about having the time to kind of develop argument and to kind of build on ideas, or is actually that the real challenge is,

210
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:30,000
is it okay, how can I describe this really succinctly in a way that communicates why it matters as well?

211
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000
Absolutely.

212
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:41,000
It's a really important skill and one that, you know, we forget when we are in the throes of writing reams and reams and reams of words, you know.

213
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:49,000
Ninety thousand one hundred thousand words. It seems a few a few hundred

214
00:25:49,000 --> 00:26:01,000
It doesn't seem very much, but it's really important skill that I think, you know, when you do nothing but long writing, you can easily forget it.

215
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:08,000
And it's one that you will absolutely carry forward with within your career, whatever career you go in to as well.

216
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,000
You know, when you if you if you were going down the academic route, you'll be asked to submit abstracts in the future,

217
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:25,000
you will be asked to submit journals which are shorter, you know, and you have to really tease out your your your key points.

218
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,000
As you said, it needs to be crystallised and really clear with what you're doing.

219
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:36,000
If you're not staying with academia, there are so many times working in business and in sales myself.

220
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:43,000
There's been so many times I might have to be really concise with what I was saying.

221
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,000
And I'm a waffle-r people listening to this or they can tell about it.

222
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:54,000
It is a real skill, but that's. Absolutely.

223
00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:01,000
Anybody can benefit from. Obviously abstracts get chosen depending on what they want to go down.

224
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:12,000
You've got lots of options for how people might want to creatively discuss their work.

225
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:22,000
Again, you've then got the opportunity to expand out and maybe do a poster, maybe do a panel, maybe do a presentation.

226
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,000
And again, these are all skills that you really, really do need practise.

227
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:34,000
And so, you know, this is a great opportunity for people to do that.

228
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:46,000
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, those those skills of articulation and summarising and kind of being able to talk about your research or being able to.

229
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:54,000
Kind of communicate your research in a fewer amount of words, shall we say, and is an important skill,

230
00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:02,000
not just in kind of communicating with a broader kind of academic and non-academic audience, but also, you know, when it comes to your writing,

231
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:10,000
when it comes to writing up, you aren't going to need to, even though you've got your 80 to 100 thousand words or, you know,

232
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,000
whatever it is that you're aiming for, depending on what kind of research programme you're on, you're still going to need to be able to do that.

233
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:22,000
You know, you've got an abstract to write, an introduction, a conclusion. You're going to need to make your argument clear throughout.

234
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000
That's a skill that's going to carry you through the written thesis as well.

235
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:34,000
It's not just in kind of conference space research communication that that's useful.

236
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Absolutely. And I think the great thing when we've got to conference,

237
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:50,000
which is just so cross disciplinary and I mean it feeds in to all areas of any work, you know, whether it's academic or not.

238
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,000
That's, you know, and I'm we're coming in.

239
00:28:53,000 --> 00:29:04,000
It's been a few years now, but I think it's really prevalently been pushed quite heavily by research councils and organisations and so on,

240
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:10,000
that we need to be demonstrating collaboration, demonstrating impact.

241
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:26,000
And, you know, when you need to do that and often you have to work with different audiences and work into discipline or in an interdisciplinary way.

242
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,000
Yes, I was going to say a bigger word. Make it short in an extraordinary way.

243
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:39,000
And when you do that, it's actually, you know, if you're not speaking, even though you may be speaking to another academic,

244
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:49,000
you have to be aware that actually, you know, that there are different languages, you know, across disciplines that people won't understand.

245
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:57,000
So, again, when you're having to engage in writing abstracts and doing it for audiences,

246
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:11,000
that may not be yorr direct discipline or area of thought or out to the organisation for developing skills that will enable you to.

247
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:16,000
Explain what you're doing to anyone.

248
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:25,000
Yes, rather than just that specific niche, that area that youre situated in.

249
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:31,000
And I think that's really important as a said You know, when when we're looking more and more to to, you know, looking at grants,

250
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:38,000
for example, or looking at, you know, working with other organisations, you have to do that.

251
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:47,000
And it's not easy. I'm working in a collaborative, an interdisciplinary field.

252
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,000
And it's not an easy process. So we need to develop those skills.

253
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:56,000
So, again, these conferences provide that and especially one with, as I said,

254
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:04,000
which such as ethics, the topic is already in the cross disciplinary setting.

255
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:10,000
I wanted to also reflects on being involved in the organisation of a conference

256
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:18,000
as a PhD student and what that's like and what kind of what you're gaining on,

257
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,000
what you're learning from being kind of involved in that behind the scenes rather than just attending.

258
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:38,000
This is an interesting one actually. I have never been involved in a conference before, so I really didn't know what to expect.

259
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:47,000
I am I'm quite a busy individual and I was a little bit worried about how much time I needed to devote to this.

260
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:53,000
And I would be wrong if I said that, you know, you didn't have to put time aside for it.

261
00:31:53,000 --> 00:32:07,000
And, you know, I'm I'm aware that different members of our team have varied responsibilities.

262
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,000
And there are some who have more than others.

263
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:19,000
So, you know, I think it's bearing and being I think coming to it being I was being really honest about what I could and couldn't do

264
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,000
And I've been able to kind of extend extend that, you know,

265
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:32,000
as I've got one of the more confident with that being being involved in the conference itself.

266
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:40,000
Has been quite illuminating. And. illuminating a number of ways.

267
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:48,000
One, I think I've been really bowled over by just how much stuff one can do,

268
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:55,000
and I think you can make it complex, more complex and not simply depending to what you want to incorporate.

269
00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,000
And again, that depends on your team and the skills, I think, for this particular project.

270
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,000
We again. Possibly because of the context of what we're talking about.

271
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:14,000
We've really been able to expand. What is on offer and who can you who you can bring,

272
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:20,000
what's in to the possibility of of the project which is extended and I've seen

273
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,000
it grow and change in shifted in what we what we are looking to provide,

274
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:32,000
what we can provide. You know, I. Great ideas. And I think that's been felt for me.

275
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:43,000
What's been so interesting is learning from from everybody and kind of going over, you know, although that's not my role.

276
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,000
I've seen what somebody else has done. And so that's really interesting.

277
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:55,000
I never knew you could do that. I even down to programming. And a Microsoft Forms, for example, with all these skills.

278
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:04,000
I hadn't actually used myself that I was being encouraged to use.

279
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:12,000
It has been very useful for me. I think that that's been, you know,

280
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:19,000
the greatest part and obviously being part of something which I'm quite passionate about and turning off with others as well.

281
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000
You are passionate about, about ethics in different ways.

282
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,000
So, yeah, it's been I've I thoroughly enjoyed it.

283
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,000
Thank you, Victoria, for taking the time to talk to me about all things.

284
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,000
Conferences. If you're interested in finding out more about the research ethics conference that Victoria and I are on the committee for,

285
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,000
I'm going to add a link to the  conference website in the show notes.

286
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,000
But I hope that even though our conversation has been quite specific to this project we're involved in,

287
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:55,000
it's inspired you to to take the plunge and to attend your first conference or submit your first abstract.

288
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:00,000
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.

289
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:27,526
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

 

 

Being a Disabled Researcher with Megan Maunder

In this episode I talk to Megan Maunder, a PGR at the University of Exeter about being a disabled researcher. I also discuss my own experiences of working in HE and being disabled, as a I suffer from chronic invisible illnesses.

If you are interested in learning more about structural inequalities in HE, you may find the AdvanceHE Equality in higher education: statistical report 2019 useful.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

 

00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:37,000
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.

4
00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,000
My name is Kelly Preece. And as always. I'll be your host. Today I'm talking to one of our postgraduate researchers, Meghan Maunder,

5
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:49,000
to carry on the series that I've started about talking to researchers and H-E

6
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:55,000
professionals about what it's like working in higher education and being a researcher.

7
00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:03,000
When you have a protected characteristic. So I'm gonna be talking to Megan today about being a disabled researcher at higher education.

8
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:11,000
Now, it's really important to note that I'll be interjecting my own experience into this conversation, as some listeners will know.

9
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:15,000
I have a longtime chronic health condition which is covered by the Equality Act.

10
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:26,000
So in legal terms, I am disabled and therefore experience challenges working in higher education and living my life,

11
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:34,000
but also receive an awful lot of support. So I'm going to be talking with Megan about our experiences.

12
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:45,000
So hi, I'm Megan. I'm currently a third year PhD student at the university of Exeter, and I live with multiple chronic illnesses and disabilities.

13
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:55,000
I didn't get a proper diagnosis or a label, most of them until later in my undergraduate and during my PhD so

14
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,000
a lot of it for me, even though I sort of been living with it my whole life.

15
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:06,000
Dealing with the admin and the bureaucracy is something that is very I've had to learn very quickly over the last two years.

16
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,000
Yeah. And I can as you know, I can relate to that hugely.

17
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,000
One of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation is because I also have a number

18
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,000
of chronic illnesses and have only in the past few years been diagnosed and

19
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,000
I'm kind of navigating the support that is and isn't available and how to best operate

20
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000
look after myself with the academic environment within an academic environment. So.

21
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:40,000
I guess let's let's start with the big one. How accessible do we feel

22
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:46,000
Higher education and research is for people with chronic illnesses such.

23
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:55,000
Big question. Yes, I think it does look lot like a lot of it depends on what field you're in.

24
00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,000
the type of research you're in. Definitely. So how does that work?

25
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:06,000
I mean, in my personal experience, my immediate supervisory team and colleagues have been really great and supportive.

26
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:13,000
My, I guess, battles, if they were being with admin bureaucracy and making sure that I get the support I need.

27
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,000
I mean, even in my undergraduate, it took me until my master's year,

28
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:24,000
which four years to get all the accommodation I needed for my exams, which is a very long time.

29
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:32,000
And that only really came as a result of me having a lot of support from my personal tutor or friends and family, really.

30
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:38,000
And I think that truly there's a lot to be done. And I was really hoping, given the current situation, things would become more accessible

31
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,000
But if anything, I actually think they've become more hostile. Really?

32
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:50,000
Yeah. I mean, from personal experience now, accessible routes are being blocked in favour of one way systems.

33
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:55,000
I think that there's a lot of discussion about things we're putting in place

34
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,000
that disproportionately affect people who are disabled and chronically ill.

35
00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,000
I know you know, worry for me is that with the push to have everything outside is great in the summer.

36
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000
But in the winter, if I get cold, it really exacerbates a lot of my symptoms.

37
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:15,000
And that's a worry for me. And the kind of loneliness that you get at that and not being on campus at the moment is also.

38
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000
So I'm lucky that I have a home office setup, but not everyone does.

39
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:29,000
I think that broadly it's the extra load that you have of being a disabled kind of human individual where you have less energy than everybody else.

40
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,000
You're a lot more pain than everybody else who's able bodied

41
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:41,000
And then you have this whole load of admin you to deal with, with your already limited time in order to make academia accessible.

42
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,000
And that, for me, I think is the biggest hurdle.

43
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:51,000
And for a lot of people, it's the form filling and the constant battle and chasing people up to get what you need in order to access it.

44
00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:59,000
And there still seems to be. A sort of statement that these things are not.

45
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,000
Levelling the playing field, but somehow giving you an advantage.

46
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,000
And people seem to think that's a bonus not realising that you're already miles behind everyone else.

47
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,000
So this is just helping you catch up. Yeah, and I.

48
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:17,000
I really relate to that. What you're saying about where we've got, you know, more physical barrier barriers,

49
00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:22,000
less energy, more pain, all, you know, all of our kind of medical symptoms, as it were.

50
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,000
But we've also got to do more work to.

51
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:33,000
Access support systems and be, you know, be anything near a level playing field with other people, and I think that's the fundamental irony, right?

52
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:39,000
We've got less energy, but more work. Yes, exactly. And.

53
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:48,000
The the thing that I find really interesting is this, and it applies obviously at the moment to a lot of different protected characteristics.

54
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,000
But this idea of kind of putting things in place to support disabled people.

55
00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,000
Provides advantage. So in the end, we end up with.

56
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:05,000
You know, this is perception perhaps that we might have more advantage than other people.

57
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,000
Well, not true. Like you say, it's just levelling the playing field.

58
00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:17,000
is that something that you've overtly experienced in academia or have you felt that's just an undercurrent?

59
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,000
I think people who are directly involved with me, like I said, that they've been very supportive.

60
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:30,000
It's definitely something I felt that dealing with disability and accessibility is not a priority within the administration side of things.

61
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000
And I think people do tend to feel like sometimes you make a fuss of nothing.

62
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,000
But it is also like the little micro aggressions and comments,

63
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:43,000
like when I had a new office chair and someone said to me, Oh, gee, do you not just like the office chair?

64
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:50,000
I was like, no. You know, I'm a long term disabled. I need a prescription filled chair to be able to be in the office.

65
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:57,000
And, you know, I, I, I think you don't have to think so. Some of course you do. But it's the little microaggression, I think, that builds up.

66
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:04,000
And when I was an undergraduate and applying for graduate jobs, a lot of schemes I applied for, there was a guaranteed interview.

67
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000
If you were disabled student and people, why don't you see that's fair?

68
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,000
I said, well, no, it's because they can't make the accommodations you need in the application process.

69
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,000
So why should I be denied the opportunity to apply?

70
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:21,000
They've decided that the cheapest and easiest route for them is just to offer me an interview rather than trying to accommodate me.

71
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,000
Like I don't have an advantage. I'm just not able to compete in the same way you are.

72
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:32,000
Yeah, I know. I know what you mean about the micro aggressions. And I, I find having an invisible illness.

73
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:38,000
People are people who are really, really understanding up to a point.

74
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
Yeah. And then it's kind of like, you know, I've got a sit standdesk which.

75
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:51,000
Actually, since I got it, I've not been able to use very much because my it was my knees that was I was struggling with and sitting for so long.

76
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:53,000
So I needed to kind of stand and alternate.

77
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:59,000
And now it's the moment I'm going through a phase where my feet are actually the problem and I can't stand right now

78
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:06,000
So it's and people will sort guess that, oh, you know, you obviously didn't or did you did you not really need that in the end?

79
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:15,000
And that kind of thing. And I think because. Most of, what, ninety nine point nine percent of the time, I don't look visibly unwell.

80
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:21,000
There is that kind of I fear that it's those micro aggressions where you feel like

81
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:27,000
this is that tiny bit of doubt in someone's mind that you that you're telling the truth.

82
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000
Yeah, absolutely, and I think particularly like you said, when it comes to accommodations,

83
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,000
I think what people don't understand that it's not a binary thing.

84
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:43,000
You constantly your situation is constantly evolving, your tolerance, your pain levels and your ability to understand what's going on.

85
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:51,000
And I think that you get that the system we currently have doesn't make room for those accommodations to change.

86
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,000
And like you said, you feel like you have to kind of justify your current things even if don't work for you.

87
00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:02,000
And it feels like under the current system, you don't have the space to experiment and figure out what works best for you,

88
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:11,000
either because you kind of have to try and take everything because you don't know how many chances you're going to have to reassess your situation.

89
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:18,000
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I wanted to pick up on that as well,

90
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:26,000
what you said about about kind of recent developments due to COVID and the introduction of one way systems and the impact of that on accessibility.

91
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:31,000
Can you talk to me a little bit about some of the issues you have experienced or foresee

92
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:39,000
around the kind of COVID related changes that make campuses less accessible?

93
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:47,000
Yeah, I think from not on campus, but for example, I have an issue going to my bank because they wanted me to go up in the lift and down the stairs.

94
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,000
And I said, well, I'm not in a position to manage this today.

95
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:55,000
And they were a bit taken aback because obviously I didn't look disabled to show that someone will come to a different arrangement for you.

96
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:59,000
As it was, they sourced everything so they could do everything downstairs.

97
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:07,000
But it worries me that on campus, people are going to see people who are they don't know are visibly.

98
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:15,000
It worries me that on campus, the people who are physically disabled might be called out for doing what's right for them,

99
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:21,000
because whilst I'm pretty open about my disability, obviously not everyone who knows me knows I'm disabled.

100
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:28,000
And also, I worry with particularly how the university word things about challenging people who are not wearing a

101
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,000
mask and breaking the one way system when we know there are people that are not in that position.

102
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:42,000
And I think that particularly in a world where people are scared and people are unsure about themselves.

103
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:47,000
People are less likely to be kind and tolerant about people who are behaving differently

104
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,000
And I think that that for me is really the key.

105
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:57,000
You've got the combination of we're already in a you know, I was talking to someone about this not long ago about,

106
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000
you know, we're already in that kind of fight or flight mode and we have been for months because of this pandemic.

107
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,000
You know, we're already scared.

108
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:13,000
We've got, you know, everything that all our emotions, our senses, everything is heightened to a degree to help us deal with the current situation.

109
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:21,000
You combine that with the micro aggressions that people already face in in an academic environment or in any environment.

110
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,000
Indeed. And so and then, you know,

111
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:33,000
the very real instances we've seen out and about of people challenging people not being socially distanced or not wearing a mask.

112
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,000
And then the fear that that will happen when you come back on campus becomes very real.

113
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:43,000
And I think it's difficult for people to understand that without the context of the micro aggressions.

114
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000
I don't know what you think. Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, as a society, we're all trying to pull together right now.

115
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,000
And I'm not saying that the measures in place are not needed. Yeah,

116
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:58,000
but there's a a strong worry and a concern that yet because of these micro aggressions and

117
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,000
this Build-Up and this really strong tension that we're feeling in society right now,

118
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:10,000
it's going to disproportionately effect people who are disabled and who the current systems don't work for

119
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,000
And I think you're right in saying that it's it is a systematic thing that's being exacerbated by this situation.

120
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:23,000
And one of the things that. I mean, I think we've we've talked about it in the past as well.

121
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000
Is that the the idea of any campus being accessible.

122
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:42,000
Is loose in terms of there's there's a difference between meeting the legal requirements and being fully accessible and inclusive.

123
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,000
And you know,

124
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:51,000
the key example of that being the building that I work in has a push plate door to get in and then it has a pull door to get in the actual.

125
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:56,000
But again, a hallway and then a pull door to get into the actual building. Just that.

126
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:04,000
So you can get into that. You can get into the corridor, if you will, but you can't get further.

127
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,000
Unlike, you know, we know a lot of buildings on our campus.

128
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:14,000
But this is true of all university campuses and all public spaces, really, that have one accessible entrance.

129
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:21,000
And how does that work with a one way system? Well.

130
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:28,000
The fact that, you know, that these buildings and these campuses generally on necessarily built to properly be inclusive,

131
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:37,000
but to kind of meet the requirements of the law. How does that make you feel as a disabled person?

132
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:47,000
I think it's incredibly frustrating and it feels to be unfair that, for example, in the past.

133
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000
Yeah, there have been times where the quickest route between my building, I see the building.

134
00:13:52,000 --> 00:14:00,000
I'm not able to make because I've it's been a day where stairs have not been my friend, and the sensible route is about four times as long.

135
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:05,000
So not only is it adding extra time to my day, but it's also taking more out of me

136
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,000
because I'm having to make that route.

137
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:19,000
And it's just incredibly frustrating that in 2020, when equality, equity and inclusivity should be at the top of everybody's priority.

138
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:25,000
That these things are constantly overlooked and when they brought up they're not taken seriously, particularly like you said, with doors.

139
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:31,000
It's so frustrating for me to push heavy doors like it causes me an incredible amount of pain.

140
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,000
And when I say to people, they say that's not a really big deal in the grand scheme of things, is it?

141
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:40,000
But it's something that the university in reality, there are plenty of solutions to do.

142
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,000
It's just not high on the agenda. And it frustrates me.

143
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:49,000
It feels like to say, well, students are not as valued and the same for disabled staff as well.

144
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,000
And I think that that's that's getting to the crux of it, isn't it?

145
00:14:53,000 --> 00:15:00,000
It's not it's not just the kind of the actual access issue and the fact that, you know,

146
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,000
you can't the the you know, the accessible route to your supervisor takes it out of you.

147
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:20,000
It's actually that fundamentally. It it that those as sort of systematic and structural micro aggressions, if you will, make you feel less welcome.

148
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:30,000
Absolutely, and especially when you're in a group, essentially to people who you don't know that well on a different academic campus, for example.

149
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:36,000
And they try a route that's successful. It's really hard. Everything isn't accessible.

150
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,000
It's really hard to be the one to speak up all the time, be like, no, actually, I can't do that.

151
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,000
Can we do this instead? And the onus is always on the individual.

152
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,000
And it's an extra emotional load.

153
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:54,000
It's an extra load logistically, because you have to plan your trips in a way that a lot of people can just turn up and hope for the best.

154
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,000
And that's not an option for myself. And, of course, a lot of disabled students.

155
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,000
So. It's frustrating that the onus is always on you and it's an extra load.

156
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,000
You have to carry when you're already carrying more than everybody else. Absolutely.

157
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:22,000
Absolutely. Can we talk a little bit about being being a researcher and what what challenges or or

158
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,000
limitations there are from the system for engaging kind of in the full research academic life?

159
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:36,000
If you are disabled or chronically ill other. Are there particular things that are difficult or challenging?

160
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:41,000
Well, I have a very big pet peeve about what's your pet peeve?

161
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:51,000
It's an injustice. It is not fair. I really it really frustrates me that as a student, you're only exempt for council tax if you are full time.

162
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:57,000
If you if you're studying full time, as soon as you drop down to part time, you have to pay council tax.

163
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:04,000
So if you're a student who's decided that they'll take the drop in income of a stipend because they can't physically meet those five days.

164
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,000
Not only losing your income, they you're losing your income because now you have to start paying council tax.

165
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:17,000
Yeah. And that's the same with sick leave. So if you're UKRI funded student, you get up to 13 weeks sick leave pay to twelve months,

166
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:25,000
which even if you're an able bodied person and get into an accident, 13 weeks probably isn't enough to aid recovery if it's a pretty serious accident.

167
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,000
So if you're dealing with long term chronic illnesses that say it's quite difficult to access.

168
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:38,000
I feel like a lot of these. Little bureaucratic things could just be fixed by the U.K. sector as a whole,

169
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:44,000
starting to employ PGR students as employees rather than students with a stipend.

170
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:51,000
I think falling into this grey area where you work as a teaching assistant and you're not really an undergrad,

171
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,000
you're not doing a taught, you're not doing a taught module, you're not taught student.

172
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:59,000
You're not really staff either means that actually you don't really feel represented either.

173
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,000
And it's really hard to to make that change in such a small group of you.

174
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,000
And you're only sort of doing that for a short period of time.

175
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000
And that really impacts your research. And like I said, because I have less time to spend on my research when I'm trying to mitigate dealing

176
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,000
with all my health issues and all the emailing I have to do separately academia.

177
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:26,000
And also I have to chase up all of the things that I need to accommodate me to make that work.

178
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:35,000
And it seems unfair that the university doesn't take on more of the responsibility to help make that easy for you.

179
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,000
And I think that the part time kind of flexibility issue is really,

180
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:51,000
really key because we know so many people who are disabled or chronically ill either can't work full time or if they or like me,

181
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:58,000
I am able to work full time, but I am able to work full time if I'm able to work flexibly.

182
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:10,000
And if I wasn't able to work flexibly and I will sort of put my hands up and say my experience of support and opportunities,

183
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,000
flexible working has been incredibly positive, which I know is not necessarily the norm.

184
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:23,000
And I accept that. But, you know, I work I do compressed hours and have done for a year and a half.

185
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:33,000
No. Almost two years now. And that really helps me having a regular like every two weeks I have a day off in which I just rest.

186
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,000
And the in the positive impact that has had on my.

187
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:47,000
Physical or mental health is substantial. And I've always had the opportunity to work at home one day a week.

188
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:56,000
Obviously I'm working at home all the time. And when we go back into a post COVID world, we will be working at home a little bit more.

189
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,000
And working at home physically has been very good for me because it takes the

190
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,000
kind of takes the commute and takes the the things that I find challenging,

191
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,000
particularly first thing in the morning with arthritis out of the day.

192
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:15,000
And so I'm able to kind of, you know, to use the sort of well trodden spoon's analogy.

193
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:24,000
I'm I'm able to retain some some of those spoon's that I use doing kind of very basic things like getting in the shower and driving to work.

194
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:32,000
And I can I can use either on my work, which is a good thing, or I can, you know, dare I say it,

195
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:46,000
use them on things that I do for myself, like hobbies or relaxing or or seeing friends either online or socially distanced.

196
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,000
Obviously. You know that flexible working is really crucial.

197
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:59,000
And I know where people don't have to. They have no choice but to work part time because it's the only way that they can manage.

198
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:10,000
Oh, I completely agree. If my supervisory team wasn't fully supportive of my flexible working hours and even pre-COVID with me working from home,

199
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:16,000
not Full-Time, but I tend to split my time. So I have certain activities sitting at home and sitting one side of me office.

200
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,000
I'm not sure I would have stuck with it because, like you said,

201
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,000
there's always a choice that you have to make and how you want to spend your limited energy reserves.

202
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Yeah. And me sometimes more mornings.

203
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:37,000
Difficult. I've never been a morning person anyway. But my conditions exacerbate my issues in the morning.

204
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:43,000
Being able to be at home and not worry about pushing myself to get dressed and walk or drive

205
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:49,000
or take public transport gives me that time to think and lets me invest my time better.

206
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:56,000
And I think there's a lot of misconceptions that just because you can work, you can't be in that much pain.

207
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,000
You can't be that ill. A lot people don't realise that it's a constant choice you have to make.

208
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:08,000
Yeah, it's you. Do I feel well enough to work today. Do I choose work above my health and that.

209
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,000
For me is a really, really challenging one.

210
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:21,000
I mean, we know, you know, the academia has a culture of overwork and kind of toxic cultures in relation to mental health.

211
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,000
And actually, it's take me since I.

212
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,000
So I've I've stopped being an academic five years ago and in professional services.

213
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:33,000
And during that time have been able to carve out much better work life balance,

214
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:39,000
which has been better for both my mental and physical health, but also.

215
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:47,000
Kind of checking out of both that culture of overwork, but also the kind of the prioritising of work over.

216
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,000
Over myself, yeah. And I'm still doing it.

217
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:55,000
I'm getting I know I'm not well enough to work and I'll and I'll get it.

218
00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:02,000
I'll get out of bed. I'll have a shower. I'll drive in and I'll arrive at work. And I'll just be absolutely exhausted and they'll lean on.

219
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:08,000
My colleagues will look at me and go, Why are you here? Why are you here?

220
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,000
And actually, I've done it where I've gone into work. And then I've been so unwell from doing that, but I couldn't go home again.

221
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,000
And it's just, you know, but there's that that guilt where I feel like.

222
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:25,000
But. But I should be working because, you know, I don't have a broken leg or whatever.

223
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,000
You know, I should I should be going to work. I should be doing something. You know, I've got lots to do.

224
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,000
You know, that wonderful illusion that we have that the world won't keep churning without us

225
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:47,000
If we're not doing our jobs. And how do you feel like your disability  feeds into those kind of overwork, slightly toxic cultures and academia?

226
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:55,000
Yeah, like I said, I think I have been really lucky that my supervisor was incredibly supportive and helps my flexible working and, you know,

227
00:23:55,000 --> 00:24:04,000
the last few months and it's craziness aside, for me, I feel like I'm on track and I'm in a relatively good place with my research.

228
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:11,000
But you're right, it's not retraining your brain and removing those expectations from society and

229
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:16,000
sort of the internalised ableism about what we should and shouldn't be doing.

230
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:22,000
And I think, you know, just to looking at a general terms for everybody in the pandemic, at the stop,

231
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000
you say you're working from home, you should get up and get dressed and make it like you're going to work.

232
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000
I think that was sort of abandoned a few months in when people realised that that wasn't

233
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,000
really sustainable when everyone was struggling with this huge amount of uncertainty.

234
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,000
And it's it's the same process for me either. You have to I have to realign my expectations.

235
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:50,000
But you're right. With the toxic culture, I was on a course a few years ago now, and it was supposed to be a session of our well-being.

236
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,000
And the person said, oh, who here actually sticks to their 40 hour week?

237
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:58,000
And I put my hands up and I felt very singled out for it.

238
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,000
And I politely spoke to the person who who wrote it at the end because he was basically saying,

239
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:07,000
oh, well done, you're sticking to what we should be doing. That's what we should be aiming to do.

240
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,000
And it's a very brave thing to make sure you stick to your work hours. And I said, we know there are some weeks.

241
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,000
Right, to do a lot more than that. But I try and balance it out with times what I'm doing next.

242
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,000
But I said, you know, you brought this up in a context, not knowing what my background was.

243
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:27,000
I don't have a choice. I think if I routinely overwork myself, I won't be able to do any work.

244
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:36,000
I've done that, you know, and that's been part of my journey over the past five years is I have routinely overworked myself and I've ended up.

245
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:43,000
In one case, quite literally, flat on the floor, unable to move so much pain every couple of years ago, I did.

246
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:53,000
I had a week where I did. The induction day in Exeter, which the induction is something I kind of do the all the presenting and talking at it,

247
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:59,000
and I find it incredibly, incredibly draining and it's all on my feet all day, which I'm not good at with my joints.

248
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:04,000
And then did it and drove down to Cornwall the next day and did the same thing in Penryn.

249
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:09,000
And then at the end of that, I drove to Birmingham to present at a conference the next day.

250
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:19,000
And I got back on Thursday and I just told my boss and said, I'm gonna I'm I'm done

251
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000
I couldn't physically

252
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:30,000
I couldn't get a bed for a week because it was and I you know, like you, I had a fantastic, fantastic boss who, when I got back to work, sat me down.

253
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:35,000
And said you are never doing that again, do you hear me?

254
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:42,000
Like, you cannot physically do that. We will find other ways. But, you know, and that and I felt incredibly guilty.

255
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,000
So I thought, well, that shouldn't be an impossible thing.

256
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:53,000
To do you know, to do things at different campuses and then to travel, to go to a conference, but actually it's the kind of.

257
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:58,000
Situation of well, for me. It is. Yeah.

258
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:05,000
And actually this year, getting to do you know, I did all of those things actually this year, but virtually.

259
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:12,000
And it didn't take anything like the same amount of energy, and because of that, I did a better job of it.

260
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:22,000
And I didn't end up taking a week off work to recover. But it seems to me it's like something you said right at the beginning,

261
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,000
which I really relate to, which is, you know, after getting diagnosed and off, you know,

262
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,000
going through a period of potentially kind of fighting a medical system that, you know,

263
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:43,000
for us doesn't value or doesn't believe in women's pain and kind of fighting and fighting and fighting to get a diagnosis.

264
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000
You then have to completely reframe your attitude to all of your symptoms.

265
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:55,000
And learn how to manage them, because the way that you've managed them before.

266
00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,000
I I don't know how to say this quite, but it doesn't really work.

267
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,000
No, I completely agree. And you know what's wrong? Yeah.

268
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:10,000
I think especially when you do know what's wrong, it's easier to figure out how you can help yourself.

269
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:16,000
And I realise that being an academic does actually come with them on a set amount of privilege when dealing with health in

270
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:23,000
that you have an institutional access to research papers and that you also have the ability to understand those papers.

271
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000
So I can go to my specialist appointments armed with all of the reading I've done.

272
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:35,000
Yes. Also, knowing what my potential clinical outcomes are and the type of things I would like to experiment with are going to help me.

273
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:42,000
You're right. It was having that label that allowed me to engage with that. And like you said, travelling takes out of me.

274
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,000
And I have to build in rest days if I'm travelling for a conference.

275
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,000
It's not an option to not have those who may like it really works me out.

276
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:57,000
And it's the same in my personal life. I'm very just to people who can go on holiday, come back on a Sunday and start work on a Monday,

277
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,000
because I need that day at home to recover, even if I had a great time.

278
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:09,000
Travelling, will take it out of me. And for me, having my diagnosis meant I could pinpoint a few things that help mitigate my symptoms.

279
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000
Like I actually, for me, the pandemic.

280
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,000
Helped some of my symptoms in the sense that I'm always in a prescription built chair or a supportive chair or in bed,

281
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:26,000
which meant that issues with my spine and my neck pain was reducing and I could mitigate that a bit more because I wasn't

282
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:34,000
in a position where I sit in those awkward plastic chairs in a seminar room or a sitting in an uncomfortable lecture hall

283
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,000
And that's something that as the world starts to be open again,

284
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,000
I worry about meeting that balance, knowing how much of a difference that's made to me.

285
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:53,000
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, we've talked already about some of the the fears,

286
00:29:53,000 --> 00:30:01,000
the real fears that we and other disabled people have about kind of returning post COVID

287
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:07,000
And that's not even taking into account where people are vulnerable because of their disability,

288
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:16,000
whether that's whether that vulnerability is kind of government approved or government sanctioned or not.

289
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:21,000
The level of challenge, I think. And I think that's the thing that we're seeing.

290
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:30,000
We're hearing a lot within kind of the discussions around Black Lives Matter, as well as the extra physical and emotional labour.

291
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:36,000
Involved in fighting to be on a level playing field with everybody else.

292
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that, you know, especially in the past, that Labour has been done for free and I think that now more institutions are,

293
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:57,000
I guess, realising that this is something that takes a very emotional toll on people, as well as the physical time spent engaging with this.

294
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,000
And they're starting to compensate people for that.

295
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:06,000
I know that some institutions are now starting to pay their speakers who come and talk about this as they should be,

296
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000
because it is a very difficult thing to navigate.

297
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:18,000
And I think also there's a very large difference between people who research these things and people who experience these things.

298
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,000
Lived experience is something that I think isn't taken.

299
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:32,000
It isn't held in as high regard. Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm so lucky that I've had incredibly supportive people in my life,

300
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:41,000
but also I have disabled friends and family who helped me navigate what is quite a difficult world and process and

301
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:51,000
give me that support and introduced me to to theories and metaphors and ways to deal with it and explain it.

302
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:58,000
And you, sadly, especially, you can draw parallels with all sorts of groups that are in a similar situation and

303
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:04,000
that they're not represented and they're not being accredited fairly for their labour.

304
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:10,000
That's something that I really wanted to pick up on. It's a conversation I've had with a few people lately, actually with chronic illnesses,

305
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:16,000
which is about kind of the the the struggles and difficulties of having a chronic

306
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:22,000
illness when you are not surrounded by you don't know any other people with.

307
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:30,000
That chronic illness or another chronic illness. You can relate to and share experience with, you know, have a whinfe as well.

308
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:41,000
We will. Well, I love a whinge. And not having that kind of network of support in a work context were also.

309
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,000
The way that not having visible role models as well.

310
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:54,000
Who are disabled or have chronic illnesses, the impact that that has on that sense of sense of belonging.

311
00:32:54,000 --> 00:33:04,000
You know, I when I first got my diagnosis, I knew nobody else under the age of 60 with my medical condition.

312
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:09,000
And as much as kind of I talked to older friends and family.

313
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,000
I never felt like they really understood what I was going through.

314
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Yeah, because they weren't kind of twenty nine years old and dealing with this diagnosis,

315
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:30,000
and it's only through being very open on social media that I have met and connected with a range of other people who are around the same age as me,

316
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,000
who have the same medical condition as me and provide a supportive community.

317
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:41,000
And sometimes I don't know how I'd cope without that. But I was talking to someone who is chronically ill, who knows no one else.

318
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:48,000
Her age who has her medical condition and feels kind of so isolated and so alone and doesn't feel like as well.

319
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:53,000
She's got people to kind of look up to to see how they how they deal with it and how they cope and how they progress.

320
00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:02,000
And I wondered what. If you had any thoughts about that kind of that culture in academia, about the culture of support,

321
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:08,000
but also that kind of culture of role models that we don't necessarily have.

322
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:15,000
Yeah, I think it's difficult. And I'm the same. I don't know in person anyone my age with my condition.

323
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Yeah. And even just in the UK support networks, I found

324
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:26,000
They tend to be the children are much older. Yeah. And it's a difficult thing to come to terms with.

325
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:32,000
But like I said, I've had the privilege of being able to access research papers that help mitigate some of my concerns.

326
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:38,000
And I have an incredibly supportive GP. She is wonderful. But yeah, it's hard.

327
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:46,000
I mean, I think particularly in academia, I'm I'm very open about it because it's not going to change me.

328
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:53,000
And yes, there's always a concern that that may come around and potentially be used against me later on.

329
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,000
But I think that's a risk I'm willing to take, because actually, since I have been more open.

330
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:04,000
Other people have confided in me more and people feel more open and more willing to come and chat to me,

331
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,000
even if they don't necessarily have a disability and might need some help navigating a process.

332
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,000
And I've been there and I've done that. And particularly friends again,

333
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:21,000
who are dealing with new diagnosis that the paperwork is hard and sometimes it's just having someone to hold your hand through that process.

334
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:28,000
And yeah, I think you're right, there is a culture about it. And I honestly think unless people speak more openly about it, that's not gonna change.

335
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:33,000
Then I'm say I'm I'm very aware that I have a privilege, that I feel that I'm able to do that.

336
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000
And, you know, everyone is able to do that. I feel it broadly.

337
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:44,000
The the team and the government is incredibly supportive and welcoming, and I feel safe enough to do that.

338
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:51,000
But you're right that this culture needs to be challenged and it can't be isolating if you don't have anyone who's gone through it.

339
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,000
And in all honesty, if it was for the fact that I have a very good friend, that I made her undergraduate,

340
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:05,000
who we struck solidly campaigns for equality and equity for disabled people and has done throughout her career and and still does.

341
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:14,000
Now, I'm not sure things would have been as easy for me and I wouldn't have been so assertive in making sure my accommodations were made.

342
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:19,000
And I think as sometimes you do kind of have to throw out the rulebook and not be

343
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,000
afraid to pester people when they should be doing something and not be afraid to even say,

344
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,000
well, OK, can you give me an update on that? So when is this happening? Can you please give me a progress update?

345
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,000
And yes, that's again, taking extra time. But unless you know.

346
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,000
But this podcast I think is great because we are talking about it and it's giving people, I guess,

347
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:47,000
a platform to realise that there are other people who are kind of going at the same thing, that there is a shortage of disabled role models in academia

348
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,000
I do wonder sometimes how how do I know I'll be able to stay in academia?

349
00:36:51,000 --> 00:37:00,000
This is an assumption that these students are single, able bodied, have no caring responsibilities and can just up and move.

350
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Yes. The thing you're saying now about, you know, two sides lecturing things, saying about privilege is really key

351
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:17,000
And I see lots of points because. One of the things that we do have in academia is more flexibility than other professions perhaps do.

352
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:28,000
And I do feel more much more comfortable being open about my medical problems in an academic environment than I think I would in an industry,

353
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:35,000
because there's a level of. I'm trying to think about how to phrase this

354
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,000
Even if.

355
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:47,000
People aren't understanding and aren't supportive because of the kind of environment we're in, there's at least a perception that people should be.

356
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:57,000
Yeah. And so that feels like a protection because I sort of think, well, if I'm open about it and you do discriminate against me.

357
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:08,000
You can't do that. And I feel like I feel like I have more, more, more power in that situation than I would do in other roles in other industries.

358
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:17,000
But, you know, the lack of role models and the lack of seeing people kind of doing things differently and working flexibly at a more senior level.

359
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,000
It's a concern. Yes, absolutely.

360
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,000
And I hear what you say about academia somewhat because of its nature.

361
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:33,000
I think because of the way we challenge our assumptions, as you do in research, means that you're right.

362
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:36,000
Even if it's not happening, there's a perception that it should be.

363
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,000
And I do worry, especially when I go for a job, interviews and things which I've not done for a while.

364
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:48,000
But when it came to me graduating, I would never apply for a job that didn't have flexi time in the job description

365
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:53,000
And that's just a thing that I have to accept that I need it. And if they're not having it in the job description.

366
00:38:53,000 --> 00:39:00,000
I know I have to have to fight tooth and nail for it. And it's not a fight I'm willing to have.

367
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,000
But also, when I go for various jobs, there's someone. Do you have any questions?

368
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,000
Oh, yes. Well, how supportive of you about working time? What's your sick policy like?

369
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,000
Do you have X, Y, Z? But there's always a worry that if you start asking these questions, they're gonna be.

370
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:21,000
They're going to say something along the lines of, oh, this person seems more trouble than they're worth.

371
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:28,000
It's always a worry, isn't it, that as soon as you start talking about it, people don't understand.

372
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,000
And misconceive what it is you're saying. But I think there's also.

373
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000
A movement is that's broadly trying to be more inclusive and saying these people

374
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000
have just as much to give and have just as much attention as able-bodied people.

375
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,000
We're just not giving them tools of which to do it.

376
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:52,000
Like, for example, I've discovered using my screen reader as a sort of audiobook allows me to engage with materials on days.

377
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,000
And previously, I don't feel like I would have been able to achieve much because I couldn't sit at my computer.

378
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:04,000
I saw something someone tweet the other day about actually that some like journal companies like Tayler and Francis,

379
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:10,000
they have read aloud functions on the journal articles. This is kind of.

380
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:15,000
This has completely changed my life, discovering this two days.

381
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:23,000
It's really small, really tiny thing might seem really insignificant people, but all the impact that's going to have.

382
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:32,000
Yeah, I think it's wonderful. But I also think that the onus needs to be on institutions to make sure that particularly you're having to use software,

383
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,000
which is big, it's clunky, it takes a lot to run.

384
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,000
You have computers that can adequately run it. Yeah.

385
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,000
But, yeah, I think, you know, these little things, though, are starting to make things easier.

386
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,000
And the thing is, they don't just make things easier for people with disabilities either.

387
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:58,000
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think there needs to be a change in the perception that changing one thing doesn't mean that you're erasing history.

388
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:04,000
So is the analogy isn't this people say, oh, what? You need to understand why it was there before we start changing it.

389
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,000
And I'm sorry, but I don't need to understand why the steps were there to know that some people need a ramp instead.

390
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Yeah. Like it's 2020. We need to stop prioritising architecture and history and tradition over people.

391
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,000
Oh, that's. That just needs to be a mantra for everything is just.

392
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:31,000
Yeah. Just move for me to think about ending on a slight positive note.

393
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,000
Well, what I kind of like what are our hopes for the future?

394
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:43,000
No, we you know, we're up we're at a moment of change in the world in so many, many ways.

395
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:51,000
Well, what do we hope the world you know, if we we were to kind of talk about our post COVID

396
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,000
accessible, inclusive world of academia, what would that be like?

397
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,000
Oh, I think definitely what I mentioned about geography earlier.

398
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:10,000
I think we need to stop particularly in academia simply because you've moved around a lot, but that's really important.

399
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:19,000
And especially now we've got all these wonderful tools for collaboration with different institutes and we're able to engage much more online.

400
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:28,000
We wouldn't have before. I don't necessarily think it as needed as before because I think you get that exposure to new ideas and concepts and teams,

401
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,000
perhaps not in the same way as you would by moving them. You still get more exposure anyway, way we didn't even 50 years ago.

402
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,000
Yeah. So hopefully geography becomes less of an issue.

403
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:44,000
I think definitely, like you said, the removal of the toxic culture know the normalising of work life balance.

404
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:49,000
And it's something that I particularly found when I've been to open days and things and the oh, what's the work life balance like?

405
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:56,000
People are shocked that someone in that. Well, I guess now mid 20s is prioritising that.

406
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:03,000
And I think changing the idea and this does affects everyone is so, you know, people with children with caring responsibilities,

407
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:10,000
that career academics are completely unattached and have that freedom is really important.

408
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:16,000
And just making it a more open culture in which we can talk and support each other.

409
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:25,000
And the difference is, I used to help improve life for everyone and improve your research rather than used to disadvantage you.

410
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:33,000
Yeah. And I think we're at a point where because of the way things have changed with COVID, that it can happen.

411
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Yeah, I read. Yeah. And I do think this, you know, like like you were saying earlier, I think at the moment there are clear.

412
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:50,000
Issues around accessibility, where the kind of COVID measures on making buildings and systems less accessible, sensible people.

413
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,000
But in the long run,

414
00:43:51,000 --> 00:44:00,000
the trend of change in the way of working and the change in people's attitudes feels certainly feels like cave it has brought into the workplace.

415
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Might lead us to a more positive shift and an understanding that that positive shift will benefit us all.

416
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:11,000
Yeah. I think so, and I hope that people are starting to realise that.

417
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,000
I think broadly people who've.

418
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,000
who come from a place in the pandemic where they've had their own home and they have not had to worry financially.

419
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:29,000
Have in some ways appreciated the chance to slow down and spend that time with their families, even if everything else has been incredibly difficult.

420
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:34,000
And I realise that I fall into that category. I'm so grateful that, you know, my income is stable and I.

421
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000
I have my own little place with my partner. We have a garden.

422
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:44,000
So for us, you know, spending that time together was great even if we struggled with the rest of the world.

423
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:49,000
And I think that people are prioritising their work life balance and their families.

424
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:57,000
And I just hope as well with with architecture, things like we were talking about doors earlier now touch and contact is an issue for everyone.

425
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:02,000
There's no reason to have not to have electric systems to keep the doors open. And they shut automatically

426
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,000
When the fire alarm goes off and little things like that, when I start to consider our hope become a normal,

427
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:16,000
particularly when considering new buildings and refurbishing them, I really hope the priority is to have a say, a disabled person on the committee.

428
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:21,000
So I think a lot of things are not wilfully ignorant. It's just cause, you know, inexperience.

429
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:26,000
And I'm hoping that the more academia embraces diversity,

430
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:31,000
the more we can have open conversations about these things to make sure that that's not the case.

431
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:38,000
Thank you to Megan for taking the time for such a candid and thought-provoking conversation.

432
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,000
I wanted to end on the positive note because I do think we're at a tipping point.

433
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:49,000
We're at a point where things could get a lot better for accessibility for

434
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:53,000
disabled and chronically ill people in higher education and all walks of life.

435
00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:03,000
And indeed, in doing so, I do firmly believe and there's an awful lot of evidence to suggest that in in systems being more accessible for disabled people,

436
00:46:03,000 --> 00:47:33,000
they'll be more accessible for everyone. And that's it for this episode.

437
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,000
Don't forget to like,

438
00:47:34,000 --> 00:48:03,073
rare and subscribe and join me next time when I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

Activism, advocacy and being black in HE with Tinashe Verhaeghe

In this episode I talk to Tinashe Verhaeghe, who founded the BME Network at the University of Exeter. We discuss activisim, advocacy, emotional labour, freedom of speech - and fundamentally what it is like to be black in HE. If you are interested in black experiences of HE, you might want to listen to the previous epsiode Being a BAME Researcher with Victoria Omotoso.

 

You can find out more about the University of Exeter BME Network on the university website and twitter. 

If you are interested in learning more about structural inequalities in HE, you may find the AdvanceHE Equality in higher education: statistical report 2019 useful.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) 
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License 
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ 

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome, R, D And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of R, D and the In Betweens.

4
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:44,000
It's Kelly Preece here. And I'm delighted to be bringing you a follow up episode to my discussion about being a BAME researcher in higher education.

5
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000
So following the events in America over the summer,

6
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:55,000
I actually made the second episode of this podcast as a special episode where I wanted to talk to one of our BAME researchers about the

7
00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:08,000
reality of higher education for someone that is black and therefore working in a structurally and institutionally racist environment.

8
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:15,000
I'm really pleased today to be able to follow up that conversation by talking to one of my wonderful colleagues, Tina,

9
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:29,000
who started the BME network at the University of Exeter and is playing a crucial role in fighting structural racism at our university and beyond,

10
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:41,000
prioritising and amplifying the voice of Black and BAME staff, students, researchers and is generally being a role model, I think,

11
00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:53,000
for all of us in how we can challenge power structures and work to make our community a better and more inclusive place.

12
00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:58,000
So, like with my episode with Victoria, I'm going to do minimal to no editing of this conversation.

13
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000
So it's another longer episode.

14
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:12,000
But I think it's important that I don't assert my white privilege and perspective onto this conversation and that I let Tinas words and.

15
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,000
Do the fantastic work that they and Tina do.

16
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:27,000
So my name is Tinashe Verhaeghe and I am currently the college EDI manager for  for the College of Social Sciences at the University of Exeter.

17
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:36,000
And I'm also a project manager on a GCRF if funded project called Imagining Futures, which is so cool.

18
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:45,000
I am one of the founders of the BME network and the current chair of the BME network as well.

19
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:57,000
And I run a number of really cool initiatives around race in higher education at the University of Exeter.

20
00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,000
Brilliant. So the BME network is relatively new

21
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,000
The university, if I'm remembering my timeline's right, is at two years old.

22
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,000
Yep, exactly. We started last year, 2019, January.

23
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:18,000
So. Can you tell me a little bit about about how the network got started on?

24
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:26,000
And I guess the why from your perspective? Hopefully it would seem relatively straightforward about why.

25
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:30,000
So I've worked at the university. I studied at the university, first of all.

26
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:37,000
And I was a student in the business school. And I've worked there since I graduated.

27
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:47,000
So that's that would have been since 2011. And it was it was always kind of uneventful, really,

28
00:03:47,000 --> 00:04:00,000
until in 2018 I had a series of personal experiences around that, you know, around race and racism at university.

29
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:10,000
And I realised that the debilitating nature of those experiences was in the fact that I just had no one to talk to about it.

30
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:19,000
No one who understood. No one who could kind of, you know, have that reaction of they said what or or laugh about it together.

31
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:30,000
You know, it was just lonely and it was crushing. And I realised that I've got I've got such a strong support system anyway.

32
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,000
In terms of family and friends. But I think that, you know,

33
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:41,000
the lacking was having another black woman or another woman of colour or a person of colour to talk to about specific things.

34
00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:51,000
That was what I didn't have at the time. And I know, as I was saying, I was aware of the fact that I have a strong support system.

35
00:04:51,000 --> 00:05:01,000
I've been at I've been in Exeter for so long and I think my heart broke for people who didn't have what I had.

36
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:07,000
So people who had were going through these experiences that were alone,

37
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,000
you know, if you're an international student, for example, your family's abroad.

38
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:19,000
I was an international student, so I get it. I didn't go home for five years at one point.

39
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,000
So I. I get it. And I just let you know this is it.

40
00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000
Let's just fix this one thing. At least if I do anything,

41
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:38,000
it's to fix this one thing where we have community and we can all come together and dissect these experiences and make a difference.

42
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:49,000
So I start having conversations with people. And the network officially launched in January 2019.

43
00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:00,000
And certainly, from my perspective, as an ally this has just been going from strength to strength in terms of its.

44
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:07,000
Voice and position in the university, and particularly in latter months, kind of.

45
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,000
Really leading the way.

46
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:23,000
For the university start having some really important conversations about race and black attainment and the black attainment gap, amongst other things.

47
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:30,000
Yeah, I was quite interested by what you said about kind of everything kind of being pootling along with everything.

48
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:38,000
Fine. And then you had a couple of instances in 2018 that were really challenging.

49
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:45,000
We've we've talked before, and I think one of the things that really has been much more part of the conversation of

50
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:53,000
late has been about the about structural racism and the ways in which our systems are.

51
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:59,000
Inherently racist in the way that they're built and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about from your perspective,

52
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:11,000
what the what those issues are in higher education, what we know, what aspects of the system are structurally racist.

53
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:23,000
So looking back, one of the things that's that's kind of spurred on this awakening in me was a.

54
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:32,000
Sighs I was trying to get a new job, and I just realised I had a realisation that I am capable,

55
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:41,000
I'm competent and educated andI'm ambitious and I should progress my career and I'd apply for jobs and get interviews,

56
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,000
but constantly be told you're completely, you know, completely appointable

57
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:55,000
But and this isn't just, you know, one or two or five interviews. I might have gone for 15 interviews in one year and kept getting the same response.

58
00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:02,000
And that's when I realised that this environment seems to be happy when I'm at a certain level.

59
00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:08,000
But when I when I'm wanting to go up that step, it feels harder than it should be.

60
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:22,000
And I think that's an example of how, um, structural racism manifests is in, you know, how difficult it is to progress for people of colour.

61
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:30,000
And, you know, that's evidenced by how thin the number, the numbers get as you go up the organisation,

62
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:37,000
the number of black professors we have or BAME professors, whatever it is,

63
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:47,000
there is evidence that shows that there is that there's a barrier to progression.

64
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:57,000
And we talk about, you know, the attainment gap and how and all of this goes to show that there's a problem.

65
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:06,000
You know, there's a problem with that around the experience of students of colour,

66
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:13,000
because evidentially they are likely to perform less than their white counterparts.

67
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:22,000
And the only thing I can see, only difference I can see is the fact that they are you know, they're people of colour.

68
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:28,000
And I know that it's a societal problem as well.

69
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:34,000
But what can we do to challenge that and address that as the university?

70
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:43,000
And I think Exeter has unique issues in that the city within is predominantly white.

71
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:53,000
Devon is predominantly white. And, you know, even I know I've had I talk to students who told me and staff I you know,

72
00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:00,000
I've had members of staff told me that experiencing racism in the city is the norm.

73
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:07,000
I'm lucky that this isn't the norm for me. If anyone ever expressed overt racism, I'd take note.

74
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,000
I have experienced it in the city, but it's not at the stage where they call it the norm.

75
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:28,000
But I've heard that when black students are in town at arts clubbing or whatever, it's the norm to have racist insults thrown at them.

76
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:37,000
So, you know, Exeter, Devon, Cornwall, especially, you have that issue.

77
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:51,000
And I think. Which is, I think, you know, looking at the evidence of the experiences of people of colour in Exeter.

78
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:57,000
That is an issue. It's not even just about listening to people's stories. You can't deny it.

79
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:03,000
I'd I'd almost say show me an area where.

80
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:15,000
People of colour are don't seem to be on the back end of of being able to succeed or progress.

81
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,000
I'd almost say. Let's look at it that way, it would be a shorter conversation.

82
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:29,000
Yes, and I think it's the the thing you're saying about the local areas is really interesting for me.

83
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:39,000
I grew up in this area and certainly my kind of when I went to university and I lived to you know, I lived out of Devon for 10, 15 years.

84
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:45,000
And when I would describe multiculturalism in Devon, my sort of explanation was we don't have it.

85
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,000
It hasn't gotten that yet.

86
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:58,000
And certainly since I started working at at the University of Exeter and I've been meeting kind of research students when they start.

87
00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:07,000
You know, I've had a couple of BAME researchers say to me very early on kind of that, you know,

88
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,000
they go into Exeter and it's it's not necessarily that they're talking about experiences of.

89
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:23,000
Overt racism or racist remarks? Obviously, that does happen. But more the kind of being struck by how.

90
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:28,000
Undiversified. And how overwhelmingly white.

91
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:36,000
And then you kind of come up to this university on the Hill and it's slightly more diverse than the city that surrounds it.

92
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,000
But not hugely. I'm.

93
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:50,000
You know, I remember going to Birmingham once. It must have been Birmingham. And I'd never been and stepping off the station.

94
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:56,000
I was like, am I still in England? Where am I? It's so it's so diverse.

95
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000
I didn't stick. I didn't stick out at all. I didn't. You know, like in Exeter

96
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:07,000
you're walking down the street and you see people of colour, you. They just pop out at you because they're so few of us.

97
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,000
You're like, I see you, you know. And you do that.

98
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:20,000
The acknowledgement that says I see you. Many of us here today and in Birmingham, I remember just it was overwhelming.

99
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:24,000
I'm like, I don't nod because there's just too many of you.

100
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:32,000
I can't just be nodding at everyone to say hi. That's just how different it was.

101
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,000
And I think that's when I realised I, I, I think that's when I realised that.

102
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:44,000
How how different the situation here is. Does that does that make you behave differently?

103
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000
I mean, I appreciate for certain that it makes other people behave differently.

104
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,000
But does it make you behave differently? Do you feel more comfortable? Do you feel more relaxed?

105
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:59,000
I definitely felt more relaxed. I don't know. It's just it felt nice to not stick out.

106
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:06,000
It felt nice to not feel like an awareness of I don't know what people who are around

107
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,000
me think because so few of them would look like me and some of them might be racist.

108
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:18,000
I guess that's my reality. You know, it is a reality that some of the people you walk past in town are thinking,

109
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:27,000
I wish she'd go back where she came from without even knowing me. So I definitely felt relaxed.

110
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:32,000
And I think that's something that, you know, as.

111
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:37,000
White people, we don't. It's so far from our.

112
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,000
Experience, this is something we don't think about. About that sense of.

113
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:50,000
I didn't quite mean belonging, but comfort in your surroundings, because, you know, you're always surrounded by.

114
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:59,000
People that look like you and you do blend in. Exactly.

115
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,000
So you mentioned about there being a particular kind of particular issues, at Exeter and what I would like to get into that.

116
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:15,000
But in terms of so you mentioned the issue of where Exter is located, being a kind of contributing factor.

117
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000
But what...we kind of recognise structural is structural racism is a.

118
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000
Global problem. And, you know, it's it's for sure.

119
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,000
I mean, and we've got so much data to prove it a problem in higher education.

120
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:38,000
What is it about? Exeter. That gives us a particular problem.

121
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:47,000
I I think we've alwaysk, Exeter is, kind of, you know, this elite university, we're very it's very middle class.

122
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:58,000
It's very. I've heard it referred to historically as the green welly attracting the green welly brigades.

123
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:12,000
And, you know, I'm I think I recognise that I have privilege and that, you know, my parents worked so hard to be able to give me the best education.

124
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000
And there's an extent to which I can come into this environment.

125
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:21,000
And I know how to be a black woman in this environment.

126
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:29,000
I know how to sound like I fit in. And all of that.

127
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:40,000
But there is something about being being from that kind of middle class background, especially like middle class white.

128
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:50,000
That means that you don't. You might you're less likely maybe to understand what it's like to be unheard.

129
00:16:50,000 --> 00:17:04,000
And I do think that the combination of, you know, being having this academic community that is very middle class,

130
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,000
white in themselves and then the student body that is similar,

131
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:18,000
but not not complete 100 percent like I'm not but I'm saying to an extent,

132
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:28,000
just has led to the conversation around the experiences of minority communities or marginalised communities being stinted.

133
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:40,000
Yeah. And the progression and development of a more inclusive community being affected by that.

134
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:51,000
And I actually also think that we compartmentalise so as people we've learnt that what I discuss with my

135
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:57,000
friends outside of work or outside of the university is very different to what I discuss when I'm in work.

136
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:06,000
So I might actually be an activist outside of work, but I'm not bringing that into my office and not bringing that into my classroom.

137
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000
And again, there's reasons behind that, you know. What what do we feel like?

138
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:22,000
There's repercussions for speaking out. And I think historically there probably have been because of where the conversation has been at the time.

139
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,000
But that also is another reason that I'd say the conversation is stinted

140
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:39,000
But I mean, it's good to see that this change around that as well on that kind of theme about about kind of conversations about race.

141
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:47,000
One of the things that I was interested to talk about was and this notion of academic freedom of speech.

142
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,000
There've been several instances nationwide, but I'm thinking of a couple in particular at

143
00:18:51,000 --> 00:19:02,000
Exeter, where comments have been made about trans people and also about

144
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:08,000
BAME people are, and in particular in recent months about colonialism

145
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:16,000
that have been. Viewed as problematic, but have been defended.

146
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:25,000
Perhaps not defended, but dismissed on the basis of. Well, we have academic freedom of speech and we have a right to be critical,

147
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:33,000
and that's our job and that's what we do as an institution, even if what's being said is.

148
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,000
Quite obviously problematic to some of us. And.

149
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:47,000
And I wondered what you will what your thoughts were about that, about this nation of academic freedom of speech.

150
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:55,000
Yeah, no, I don't come at this from an academic background cause I'm not an academic.

151
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,000
It's from what I've seen and what I understand today.

152
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:15,000
I have an appreciation for academic freedom of speech and what it allows people to explore and what it could do for future generations.

153
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:33,000
I think for me, it's a problem when it seems to allow people to behave in a way that lacks integrity, when it allows people to.

154
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:42,000
I don't know. Not not act out of good character or.

155
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:49,000
Yeah, it just removes common decency. Cause there's a you know, when when we're talking about these issues,

156
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:57,000
I don't talk about racism out of kind of a ideology and it's academic research or whatever.

157
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:05,000
I talk about it from wanting a better experience, a better lived experience for people.

158
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:14,000
And if and if someone is more if someone's finding that their academic freedom of speech is more important

159
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,000
than actually listening to what the individual is saying about the about how they're being oppressed.

160
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:26,000
Yeah. Then what's what are you going to do with that

161
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:34,000
I just I feel like, you know, when people when those kinds of people exist and they can all go about doing their life

162
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:44,000
until something hopefully makes them see that there are people behind these stories.

163
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:52,000
And hopefully they'll come out from behind the academic freedom of speech banner that they're able to hide behind.

164
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,000
And I think part for me as sort of, you know, an academic and a researcher,

165
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:04,000
that is there's something in there about hiding behind the objectivity of research that is kind of fantasy that we have that,

166
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:12,000
you know, research is objective. We're not looking at it. You know, our personal experiences and our viewpoints and the lived experience.

167
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:19,000
People don't come into it. We're just looking at this. We're stepping back and we're looking at it objectively as if that's in any way possible.

168
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:25,000
And actually, you know, there were a lot of research traditions that in sort of the past couple of decades that have moved beyond that and said,

169
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:31,000
well, a, you can't do that if it involves human beings, it's inherently subjective and biased.

170
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:39,000
What would that be? Why would we want to in that way? Why would we want to look at experiences of race and colonialism objectively?

171
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,000
Because they aren't objective. They're subjective.

172
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:49,000
And I'm you're saying that we're talking about people's lived experience or why would we want to talk about it in a way that's disconnected from that?

173
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:58,000
Exactly. That's so true. And on an academic level, it's it's one of my frustrations on an on a purely academic level.

174
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:08,000
It makes no sense to me because of that, let alone the kind of more kind of moral kind of,

175
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:18,000
you know, kind common decency of angle to which, of course, is more important.

176
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:30,000
And I think inside, you know, I think about how academia is built on the basis of white supremacy and how.

177
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:41,000
Until we understand that this notion of academic freedom of speech is built on the ideology of white supremacy, there's power dynamics involved in it.

178
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:51,000
And it's never going to be something that allows society to move on an inclusive way.

179
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000
Absolutely. And that and that academic freedom of speech is not academic freedom of speech for all.

180
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:05,000
Exactly. It's for people with identities that we find most comfortable or palatable.

181
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:11,000
Exactly. And that that's a really important because I think there is like.

182
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:23,000
You know, it does. I often hear the argument, you know, for lots of different and minority groups that will, you know, will.

183
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:31,000
But. But, you know, you can't overtly decide to pay someone less or because they're a woman or not promote them

184
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,000
because they're black or not hire them because they're disabled and all that sort of thing. You know, if you can't do that, it doesn't happen.

185
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:41,000
We have we have processes against it. And you go, but. But but.

186
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:48,000
So then why do we not have more of these people represented in senior management?

187
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,000
And it's not the. Those.

188
00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:03,000
It's not that the decisions are necessarily overtly racist, but if you got a system that's based on white supremacy and, you know,

189
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:15,000
privileges, white, male, cis, middle class, straight voices, then inevitably you're going to be making decisions that are based on.

190
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:22,000
That history. Exactly. Exactly.

191
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:32,000
It's it's inherently. It's inherently racist and oppressive and you which to you know, when it's not thinking outside the box,

192
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:40,000
being innovative in approaching these issues and not do what we've always done, because, look, we're what we've always done has left us, you know.

193
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:50,000
Yeah. Absolutely. And I think, you know, in that in terms of my own.

194
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
Journey to understand this as a white person.

195
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:58,000
I think, you know, one of the things that it was challenging.

196
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:05,000
To get my head round was the ways in which things are, you know, systems are structurally racist and,

197
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:13,000
you know, systems, academia are built on white supremacy because I don't see it.

198
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,000
Because it doesn't it. I was gonna say it doesn't affect me.

199
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,000
It does affect me. It affects me positively. And.

200
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:29,000
You know, and I think as well in learning about race and racism, learning the.

201
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:36,000
Learning that kind of. Racism isn't just racial slurs.

202
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:46,000
And I think that's been quite a. A different quite quite a challenging thing to wrap my head around.

203
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:52,000
I think over the years and has completely changed my.

204
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,000
My perspective on. On systems.

205
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:09,000
But I think it's still. You know, for instance, it's only really in recent years that when.

206
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:17,000
I've. So I I when I walk in a room to a meeting, say particularly kind of any any kind of management meeting,

207
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:24,000
I will always know how many women are in that room. And I will always make a mental note of, oh,

208
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:32,000
I'm the only woman in this room or I'm one of three women in this room and two of us are taking notes or whatever it is.

209
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:40,000
But it's only in recent years that I've. Start to walk into a room and go, hang on a minute.

210
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,000
You're thinking about whether or not there were women in this room because you're a woman and because that's what you're looking for.

211
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:53,000
And you're looking for. People like you, but realising that the majority of you know, I.

212
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,000
So I worked in HE for eleven years now in a variety of different roles.

213
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:09,000
And if I look back and think hard, I can remember very few rooms I was in that had people in them that weren't white.

214
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Yes, very few. But I really struggle to remember.

215
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:21,000
Yeah, and that's and that's not from some lofty thing of I don't see right in all of that sort of stuff, it's thinking back.

216
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:33,000
I'm like, no, I'm pretty sure the majority of meetings and rooms and events I've been involved in in H-E have been almost completely white.

217
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:41,000
Yeah, and. It's. You know, we have we have the data.

218
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Know we have acres of it and it and it's completely stark.

219
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:56,000
But that doesn't seem to be. Doesn't seem to be enough to convince people of how much of a problem this is

220
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:02,000
Completely. There's lots of explanations that I mean,

221
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:11,000
I don't think there are lots of explanations I've heard when you ask about the number of people who work at the university.

222
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:21,000
But a big one is look at the context of Exeter. You know, it's difficult to to find the people.

223
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:36,000
And, you know, I can understand that. But, you know, I think of the number of people who've kind of been interviewed for jobs who just have not been appointed here.

224
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:46,000
And I know it might not have made the world of a difference and might not have meant that walking on on campus is like walking in Birmingham.

225
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:55,000
But it would have made a difference if people actually stopped to examine I mean, what was happening with our hiring practises.

226
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:04,000
And I really like what you say because I always wonder I mean, I'm often the only black woman in a room.

227
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:10,000
I've I feel lucky that I've had a black manager in my career here.

228
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:19,000
And I have had someone I've actually seen someone, a black woman managing and seen that you have had that role model.

229
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:28,000
And I feel really lucky for that, about as they I actually realised that a lot of people might not ever have had that.

230
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:37,000
And I think about the number of managers who don't have any kind of diversity around them at all,

231
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:50,000
or the number of people who are able to make a change, who could go through months without having had a meeting that has someone who is on.

232
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:57,000
Not that it does have to be equal footing, but has a position of responsibility in authority,

233
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,000
who is a person of colour around them and how comfortable that seems to look for them,

234
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:11,000
because they don't don't ever they don't seem to be uncomfortable with it.

235
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:18,000
And I think, you know, I hear a lot from students as well as when people start here where am I represented.

236
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:27,000
I have no black professors, I have no black teacher leads or whatever, where I'm not represented anywhere.

237
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,000
I don't feel represented on the core set of your my course, I don't feel represented. I don't feel like I've.

238
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:38,000
I don't have a role model. And I think it's just.

239
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:45,000
These are the reasons that we talk about these issues because, you know, we talk about the BME attainment gap and one of the.

240
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Like, how can we expect people to succeed when the measures of success around them are not represented in that, you know?

241
00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:09,000
No. And and also that the reach to achievement have infinitely more blocks and hurdles and placed in in the way you know,

242
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:16,000
it's not like everybody's everybody's walking through the same I, you know, perfectly open door.

243
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:26,000
It's not. It's not as simple as that and I you know, I remember myself, you know, thinking when I was younger that that thing,

244
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:33,000
you know, had a very kind of idealistic kind of meritocracy idea that we know if you work hard, you can do anything.

245
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:39,000
Well, no, that's not that's. It's just infinitely not that simple because.

246
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:45,000
No, if. And I think the thing about not seeing people represented is interesting is it just perpetuates.

247
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:58,000
If you don't see yourself represented in academia, in like having black professors and role models, then you don't consider that to be a route that.

248
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:04,000
You would go down because you don't see yourself modelled in that. And then we, you know, we continue to get it,

249
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:11,000
getting this perpetual cycle of people that see themselves so they don't pursue those career routes or pursue those opportunities.

250
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,000
And it just. All that does is reinforce.

251
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:26,000
The status quo. Right, yeah. And it seems to me.

252
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000
And that.

253
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:39,000
Therefore, what we need to be doing is taking a step back from that whole process and going, okay, what can we do to, you know, if we're not hiring?

254
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,000
Very many black people, if we're not attractzing that many black researchers or black academics.

255
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:56,000
What what can we do? More actively recruit.

256
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:04,000
academics to create and to put policies and environment in place that would make black academics and students want to come here.

257
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:11,000
If we think that's the issue, then what what can we do to to change the environment,

258
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,000
to be more attractive, but also not, I think, go out and actually.

259
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:22,000
Find people not expect kind of people to come to us.

260
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,000
That's so interesting, is that what I mean?

261
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:38,000
I think in the last 12 months especially, there've been a number of open letters written to the university about racism and race at the university.

262
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:44,000
And I actually there's a number of commonalities around across all the letters.

263
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:50,000
But one commonality is that not not one of them talks about increasing diversity.

264
00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:01,000
Not one of them says we need more people of colour. All of them are just talking about the current environment and watch and what needs to be changed.

265
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:09,000
And I, I just find that I found that interesting because it is saying that it is this what

266
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,000
needs to happen in this environment for people to actually kind of recommend Exeter to people,

267
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:21,000
you know, the students and people who are looking for jobs, but also because we know that you'll come and succeed,

268
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:26,000
not that you'll you'll come here and have to fight racism, you know?

269
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:35,000
I think of. The student body and how some, you know, some people could go through their whole career.

270
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:43,000
I kind of have, you know, a relatively positive experience, let's say relatively, because no one has a perfect experience.

271
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:56,000
But. But not. But without having to kind of spend emotional or physical energy and labour towards improving the environment around them.

272
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:03,000
But the likelihood that black students have to come here and then be students but also be activists.

273
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:11,000
Yeah. Is, well, higher than their white counterparts.

274
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:24,000
And I just think about the time and energy that that takes. And it breaks my heart to think that that's an experience that people have as standard just

275
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:33,000
because you are experiencing the oppression of racism and structured racism at the university,

276
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:41,000
you know. Yeah. And I think that's another that's another thing I wanted to pick up on, really,

277
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:47,000
is this is this sense of labour and I mean, you know, literal physical labour,

278
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:56,000
but it largely kind of mental and emotional labour that goes into being being black or being BAME in

279
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:03,000
this kind of environment where you don't have the same opportunities to progress and to succeed.

280
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,000
And that, you know, potentially as a student, you're thinking about coming to university.

281
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:15,000
Like you said, you're not just thinking about coming to university to enjoy it and to work and get your degree, but making a decision of do I want.

282
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:22,000
Do I want to be a part of this system where I have to in some shape or form?

283
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:28,000
Fight for me right to be there. Well, I mean,

284
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:37,000
I think that the idea that that idea of black people having to it to be the voices that

285
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:44,000
change the system in a in a place like Exeter is only exacerbated by how few of us they are.

286
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:53,000
So I'm really the only black person meeting who then has to say, oh, hey, you know what?

287
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,000
Something horrific is happening in the black community internationally.

288
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,000
And I have to tell people that I'm not coping because of this.

289
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:08,000
And I'm not even saying this because for me, but I'm saying it because we have black students and I'm hoping that I'm not

290
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,000
the only black member of staff that those people might be around that day.

291
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:21,000
And it's good practise for us to know what's going on across the world so we can support each other and be more inclusive environment.

292
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:26,000
But this ends up being just constant for me in the workplace.

293
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,000
I'm constantly the one who will have to say in a meeting. OK.

294
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:41,000
What are the implications of that? Or is there an awareness of what J.K. Rowling has been saying about trans people?

295
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:48,000
And what's what's what are we. What it what message are we wanting to send as colleagues and to our students?

296
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,000
Do we are we just ignoring it? I'm really not aware of it. I do.

297
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:59,000
I know it's confusing for me, but it's my I know it's been, what,

298
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:08,000
almost two years now that I've been working with the network and it's been a roller coaster.

299
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:20,000
Personally, I feel like I am constantly broken into pieces by conversation, hearing what people's experiences are like on the ground.

300
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Yes. And it's just heartbreaking to know that that's that's happening, but also seeing how incredible these people are.

301
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,000
They just, you know, there's an awareness that racism is the white people's problems.

302
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:41,000
It's that white person's problem is not my problem. I am phenomenal and capable.

303
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:52,000
And you, whoever it is that's perpetuating the racism, just has a lot of work to do themselves, to be better people.

304
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:58,000
But it's still it's not easy. It's still difficult. And I think so personally.

305
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,000
The person probably seen my struggles the most is my husband.

306
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000
He's seen me where I'm just completely broken because of how hard I have to work and how little the returns feel.

307
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000
And but, you know, there's also. I find that the people in the university that I can work with.

308
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:31,000
And we do really good work. But it's the people who are not convinced.

309
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,000
I don't know who don't feel that racism is worth putting effort towards.

310
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:44,000
Who was whose response to racism seems to its feels performative because of the things they say behind closed doors.

311
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:50,000
And I've had those experiences of things said behind closed doors where.

312
00:40:50,000 --> 00:41:01,000
And then also having that, I think that's probably what's broken me the most, is seeing how people who are performative get away with that.

313
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:06,000
They not only get away with being performative, but they get away with with doing with saying things that are harmful behind closed doors.

314
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,000
Yeah. But because there's a power dynamic at play.

315
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,000
They come out smelling like roses, you know. Yeah.

316
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:21,000
So that's one of the things that really gets me.

317
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:30,000
And I'm I'm so big on justice. I'm so big on social justice that I want to I want to shake up the system and say this is wrong.

318
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:38,000
But then I'm also just aware of how strong the the political dynamics are in higher education and life in general,

319
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:45,000
but in higher education specifically. That's very hierarchical. It's incredibly political.

320
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:52,000
And you have to pick your I. I've come to a stage where I you know, I have to pick my battles.

321
00:41:52,000 --> 00:42:01,000
And I also, you know, have to think about where I want to invest my own emotional energy.

322
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:11,000
Yeah. There's an extent to which I actually feel that the university, there are pockets in the university where really, really good work is being done.

323
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:19,000
I've and I I have faith and trust that there'll be really, really good outcomes out of it.

324
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:30,000
And it is more about setting up systems where people are incentivised to think about the racism and race

325
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,000
power dynamics because there isn't an incentive if if someone's not engaged.

326
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:43,000
How do you engage people who are not engaged, basically? And I think that's where the issue will always lie.

327
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:52,000
But, you know, I also feel a level of frustration that I can't just have I can't just build my career.

328
00:42:52,000 --> 00:43:02,000
Why do I have to be an advocate advocates alongside building a career?

329
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,000
You know, I think. I just want to.

330
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,000
I'm doing this because when when my kids are working,

331
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,000
I'm hopeful that they will be in a position where they are more likely to be able to just

332
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:21,000
build their careers without having to be activists because of the colour of their skin.

333
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,000
They can be activists because the world will always need it,

334
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:30,000
but not because their mom was black, that they need to do this to do things.

335
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:38,000
In addition to what? Other people who have a level of privilege that they don't have can do.

336
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,000
And that really reminds me of what you said earlier about your kind of your experience of of trying to

337
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:49,000
progress and going in to interview for jobs and always being told you were appointable

338
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,000
appointable not appointed is what I call it.

339
00:43:53,000 --> 00:44:00,000
And I suppose seeing it in that situation and feeling that frustration and all of the work that needs to be done.

340
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:07,000
Whilst I am imagining you're watching white colleagues.

341
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:15,000
progress up that ladder more easily. Completely.

342
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:22,000
And I that's completely right. I think I remember looking at my credentials.

343
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,000
I'm looking at the credentials of different colleagues are not. I'm not into comparing way

344
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:35,000
I guess not having had a mentor to actually at one stage say, Tina, you are incredible.

345
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:42,000
And you your to affirm your ambition. Having to affirm that ambition in myself because no one else is no good for you.

346
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:51,000
First of all. And then kind of pegging where you you you should be in your career using kind of do it in a measured way,

347
00:44:51,000 --> 00:45:02,000
not just kind of finger in the sky approximation, but seeing that there are people who you operate at the same level.

348
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,000
And. But it's it's just proving to be impossible for you.

349
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:15,000
And also accepting accepting the fact that. I I don't I don't feel entitled to these jobs.

350
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:26,000
But on the balance of probability, once you've had a certain number of interviews and you're appointable, something's got to work out right.

351
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,000
All of the things that you get told it it's it's to do with the candidate pool or this, you know,

352
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:37,000
that just happens to be somebody that's already working in that area or at that level or, you know, whatever the rationale is.

353
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,000
There's got yeah. Logic tells me that at some point that's got to work in your favour.

354
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,000
Exactly. At some point. And it's that point came

355
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:56,000
But I just feel like that that point came after a hell of a lot of attempts.

356
00:45:56,000 --> 00:46:04,000
And it's also, you know, it's difficult to to to say that because you're kind of like.

357
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:11,000
I don't know, like you imagine that people are like, oh, but maybe you weren't ready for the job or you weren't good at the job.

358
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,000
That is, there's rationales reasons that people will have for that.

359
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:20,000
And some of them might be true, but I. I do.

360
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:26,000
So I say this because it's not just my experience.

361
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:34,000
I have colleagues who go through similar things where I like you've got how many degrees and you're what grade and you've been trying to progress,

362
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:41,000
but you're getting you're finding it impossible, you know. And this is in the professional services, not in academia.

363
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:52,000
I mean, I certainly know from my from my experience as a as a woman in this environment and also trying to progress that I've got.

364
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,000
I've got to the kind of level where women tend to top out.

365
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:04,000
In H-E and so trying to progress beyond that is there is an ongoing challenge.

366
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:10,000
And I think one of the things that.

367
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:20,000
One of the things that I've I've struggled with, and I wondered if it it was a similar experience, is after a certain number of rejections,

368
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:26,000
kind of even though people are saying that you're appointable going well, is is there something wrong with me?

369
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:37,000
Why isn't it? Why is it that I keep getting rejected? I think it's very easy to then take the not the blame of it, because it's not.

370
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,000
But go. Oh, there must be something wrong with me.

371
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:48,000
And I feel really privileged to have wonderful people, particularly women in my life, to turn around, to go.

372
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:54,000
No, it's not you. It's the system.

373
00:47:54,000 --> 00:48:03,000
But it's very difficult not to take your sense of responsibility and a sense of almost failure onto yourself.

374
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:10,000
Even if you know logically that the issue is more about the system than it is about you.

375
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:16,000
And I wondered if that was the same kind of. It.

376
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:28,000
Yeah, completely, I don't know if there's a way to not take it on you in some way and without exactly

377
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:35,000
and without that that voice that does say there's something with the system.

378
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:41,000
You will take it on. And I think that's part of what I was trying to say before.

379
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:52,000
But you definitely summed it up perfectly. Is that, you know, you can go after you after your nth rejection.

380
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:57,000
What else could I have done? You know, what else could I have done? What's wrong with me?

381
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:06,000
I am I just fooling myself to think that I should invest in this ambition that I have.

382
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:14,000
And this. And the fact that I know I can do this job or whatever.

383
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:24,000
But I think I I actually started to think about what this about unconscious bias and, you know,

384
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:32,000
the training that we get in light of the fact that a lot of the interviews I'll have,

385
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:41,000
the positions would likely to be take to be given to the successful candidate is likely to be a white woman.

386
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:46,000
And the person who was in the position before is likely to be a white woman.

387
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:52,000
And I think there's something to be said about unconscious bias when you're filling

388
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,000
a position in a way that's like for like when it comes to these characteristics,

389
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:08,000
because you can't see out fo the box, you can't see that there's something block stopping you from seeing someone who looks different in that position.

390
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:16,000
So I think for me, it's something that I had to that I have to could I have to keep reminding myself that it's not me?

391
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:26,000
I mean, I I'm always I'm someone who's into growing as a person, developing myself.

392
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:32,000
So I I you know, would I get feedback, I will take it on board.

393
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:39,000
But there's an extent to which I it guess there's something about the system that is blocking.

394
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:43,000
There's nothing more difficult than it has to be.

395
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:51,000
And I have to keep reminding myself of that because it's important it's important that I don't internalise what's going on.

396
00:50:51,000 --> 00:51:00,000
And I keep forging ahead and I keep trying to make a difference for future generations.

397
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:09,000
And I think that really, for me, relates back to what you were saying earlier about the, you know, why you set up the network.

398
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,000
And the importance of it is is having those.

399
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:26,000
but also just people around you who share in that experience who can kind of be your voice of reason outside yourself to help you not internalise.

400
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:31,000
Everything, actually. Exactly.

401
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:39,000
And we do. I have colleagues that we have these conversations with about because I'm not the only one who struggled in this way.

402
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:47,000
We talk about how how frustrating it is.

403
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:53,000
And it's a it's a shared experience for amongst some of us.

404
00:51:53,000 --> 00:52:01,000
Yes. One of the things I'm I'm interested in hearing about from you as well is.

405
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:11,000
What? What's changing, I'm not gonna say changed, but what's what's starting starting that process of changing as a result of.

406
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:16,000
The BME network, I know from a sort of again, as an outsider,

407
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:30,000
I'm seeing a lot more conversation here at university level about issues to do with race and certainly initiatives and events around race.

408
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:36,000
But I wondered kind of what. Well, from your perspective, feels like it's changing.

409
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:48,000
If if anything. Yeah. So I a I'd say that's the allies are definitely bringing the ship in to work more.

410
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,000
I can't speak for the student community because I don't know.

411
00:52:52,000 --> 00:53:01,000
But in terms of the work environment, people who are in positions all over at different levels in the university are

412
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,000
definitely bringing their allyship in to work and trying to and people

413
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:10,000
who and people are encouraging and watching them that made it motivate themselves

414
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,000
to learn more about what race and racism mean for them in a work context,

415
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:24,000
which is phenomenal. And it's leading to a lot of these initiatives that would not have taken place before without the move.

416
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:31,000
There's more conversations going on. And when I started.

417
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:39,000
This whole journey in general. I remember thinking. I don't understand how we can have such white leadership and be expected to just naturally

418
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:49,000
trust that our that my best interests are being incorporated into a decision or that may.

419
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:55,000
That's the vantage point of being a black woman in this institution is appropriately being represented in decision making.

420
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,000
I just I don't understand that.

421
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:11,000
And I think that I'd say that there is definitely more conversation and there are there's more relationships of trust being built,

422
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:18,000
which is important because I think actually I'd say that the university,

423
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:24,000
as there are pockets in the university that are recognising that you don't just assume

424
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:33,000
you have trust or that as a community we are saying we deserve to be able to trust you.

425
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,000
And if you can't subscribe to that,

426
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:42,000
then we're going to have an issue that when you talk about or we actually just that there's going to be

427
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:48,000
something done about the fact that you don't think that you owe a duty of care to us as a community.

428
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:57,000
and we knows that white assumptions and understanding about race and racism are massively flawed?

429
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:08,000
So, you know, and if I can recognise that as a white person and recognise and recognise the flaws in my previous thinking as well,

430
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,000
you know, how can we not realise that? Of course, if you're black,

431
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:24,000
you don't trust white management to represent your views because you know that any guesswork they're doing about your experience is.

432
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:30,000
A lot of the time wholly inaccurate. And that's not necessarily of a fault of theirs.

433
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:36,000
But you've not lived it. So how how do how can you really understand the reality of that experience?

434
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:41,000
And if you've not lived it and if you're not engaging with people's experience. Exactly.

435
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:49,000
It's completely yet. And I think as as members of this community, I for one, was I.

436
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,000
OK. So we're in a situation where our leadership is white.

437
00:55:54,000 --> 00:56:01,000
How are we going to enter a dialogue that shows that we can reach you, get you.

438
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:07,000
I want to hear the language. What kind of language you're using? I want to know how we interact. Are you are you defensive when we're interacting?

439
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:14,000
Or are you are you are you are you saying the right things?

440
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:23,000
Are you say acknowledging the fact that things as they are are not ideal in any way, but we're working towards it or when we're in a meeting?

441
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:32,000
Are you using me just as lived experience or as a professional woman in your organisation?

442
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:39,000
So that that we've had conversations with different people in management at the university and they've

443
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:50,000
I think that's that's been a really positive change for us and an opportunity for people to be able to be frank in conversation

444
00:56:50,000 --> 00:57:04,000
and to actually be building with when it comes to a lot of these initiatives as opposed to them being completely top down.

445
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:09,000
And the conversation element is just crucial in general across the university.

446
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:14,000
There's I think, you know, this is. A term like no other,

447
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:20,000
when we look at the comms around race and racism and the university and even looking at

448
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:26,000
Sir Steve Smith acknowledging certain things about race and racism at the university.

449
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:33,000
In his last address to the staff shows that there is.

450
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:41,000
There is something different about how things are now, and I think they even completely different how things were at the beginning of last year.

451
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:47,000
Completely different. And the network has we've been so busy.

452
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:51,000
We've worked so hard as a community.  Yeah.

453
00:57:51,000 --> 00:58:02,000
We've worked so hard as a community to make sure that we are seen and that we're not only seen as people with lived experience,

454
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:06,000
but we are professionals. We are capable, we're competent.

455
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:12,000
And in ourselves, where I think there's there's an extent to which I'm like, OK, you know what?

456
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:22,000
You might be more senior than me, but don't don't be fooled to think that you are more capable than me in any way.

457
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:29,000
I have the fact that I'm a black woman that I work with every day.

458
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000
Things would have been things would be different if we were in we were switched places.

459
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:39,000
So I think in me, it's that understanding that I might not have that position.

460
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:44,000
But there are reasons for that. It's not because I am incapable or incompetent.

461
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:49,000
So I'm going to act like that person has that position, because that's what I think.

462
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:59,000
That's what needs to happen for things to get done. And whoever it is that I'm talking to can can kind of process how they want for themselves.

463
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:06,000
But you can't deny the fact that what we're saying makes sense and things need to change.

464
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:12,000
So you can you know, we can process it together. We're going to be available to process things with you.

465
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:17,000
But not. But not when you're looking down on us in any way.

466
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:22,000
Then we're just gonna go round you over your head or whatever, because things need to get done.

467
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:28,000
So in all of this, we've talked about all of the issues and all of the work that you're doing and some

468
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:33,000
of the really positive changes that are happening in our university community,

469
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:41,000
certainly. And so I wanted to finish by asking you, what do you hope for?

470
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:49,000
If I was going to hope for anything out of this conversation, it would be that, you know,

471
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:57,000
we need to expand our horizons, expand our perspectives and think about the different experiences around us.

472
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:03,000
Not, not Think that everyone sees life through our lenses and be open to that.

473
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:13,000
And also be vocal in creating an environment in which more more people can succeed.

474
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:18,000
And the voices of more people are are included.

475
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,000
Thank you so much to Tina for taking the time to talk to me.

476
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:31,000
I found our conversation really challenging and humbling and moving in equal measure,

477
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:40,000
particularly around discussions of the importance of community, the importance of seeing people who look like you to being part of a community,

478
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:47,000
but also having a support network where you are encountering racism, whether that be through overt racism,

479
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:58,000
racism or micro aggressions or structural racism that say you've got people to share those experience with experiences with that you can relate to.

480
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,000
I'm hoping that this discussion will be the start of a series of episodes of this podcast

481
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,000
throughout the next few months on discriminated groups and their experiences of H-E.

482
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:16,000
I think it's really important to open up the discussion and to be honest about what it's like to

483
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:21,000
have a protected characteristic or be part of a minority group and operate in our environment.

484
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:53,570
And that's it for this episode. Don't forget to like, ratre and subscribe and join me next time where I'll be talking to somebody else about researchers, development, and everything in between.

Special episode: Starting your research degree

In this episode we welcome new PGRs to the start of the academic year with a special episode on starting your research degree with contributions from Catherine Cartwright, Jamie Cranston, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, Warren Speed and Emily Taylor, talking about their experiences of starting their research degrees, and advice they have for those joining our community this September.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and The Inbetweens.

2
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this episode of R, D and the In Betweens to celebrate the start of the academic year at the University of Exeter.

4
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:45,000
We've got lots of new PGRs joining us. And so I wanted to do an episode that was about getting started with your research degree.

5
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000
So what I've done over the past few weeks is I've spoken to a variety of our postgraduate

6
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,000
researchers and asked them what it was like for them starting a research degree.

7
00:00:53,000 --> 00:01:02,000
And what advice they'd give to someone coming in. But before we dispense with the advice, let's start with a warm welcome.

8
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,000
I'm Emily. I'm just going into the second year of my PhD

9
00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,000
And I really want to say a big welcome to the University of Exeter.

10
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:17,000
Shame can't do it in person at this time, but it doesn't mean that you're welcome any less.

11
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,000
And I hope you have a great time. Congratulations as well.

12
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:28,000
And on achieving your goal, getting the place.

13
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:35,000
So let's start by talking about how does it feel to start a research degree. Here 4 of our PGRs

14
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:42,000
Catherine Cartwright, Edward Mills, Victoria Omotoso, and Warren Speed talk about their feelings of nervousness,

15
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,000
disorientation and uncertainty during those first few months and indeed that first year.

16
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:58,000
Well, I had said it's pretty disorientating coming to what is a massive university,

17
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:08,000
much busier than what I was usde to on, my M.A., which was on a kind of side campus that where I was.

18
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:20,000
And it's just remembering what it's like to be new somewhere and be new at something intimidating is how I describe it, actually.

19
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,000
I spent a year out of academia doing teaching.

20
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:31,000
I was very enthusiastic about getting back into it. But I was also nervous that I might not have a clue what I was actually doing.

21
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:39,000
It's a whole research thing. I was very lucky to get very good support from the staff, from the Doctoral College here at Exeter and also from my supervisors.

22
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:48,000
But. I think it is a very natural thing to feel to feel nervous about starting a degree

23
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:53,000
So at best, it was all quite uncertain. Of course, everyone's really excited to start a PhD

24
00:02:53,000 --> 00:03:06,000
But for me personally, I didn't I can't really comprehend what that meant in terms of how to kind of kick it off, kick off this PhD journey

25
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:15,000
I think the first thing that was super helpful for me was having first contact with my supervisors.

26
00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,000
It was tricky at the beginning trying to navigate what it was actually trying to do.

27
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000
I had no idea what I was doing my PhD in.

28
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:30,000
But I don't think you really do have an idea of what you want to do a PhD in, especially with social sciences and in my

29
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:36,000
And for me, until you get into your second year and you really start thinking about the questions

30
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,000
that you need to ask or what it is you're looking for properly and you get into it.

31
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000
But having a great supervisor supporting it is great.

32
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:55,000
I've got brilliant one. He's really supportive. So speak to your supervisor speak to your personal tutor, the personal tutors, they've heard everything.

33
00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:03,000
So don't be afraid to speak to them. The other thing is, is when you your first year is always gonna be an absolute mess.

34
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,000
Well, for me, it for a lot of my friends. It was anyway. We're not really sure what we're doing.

35
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:13,000
We did a lit review. Bits of introduction. Little bits of questions of methods and application forms, whatever.

36
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,000
That's what the first year like the first year is just meh. The second is hard.

37
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:23,000
I found because that's usually when you start doing data collection and it can be really difficult.

38
00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:34,000
And don't underestimate data collection and do not underestimate how long it can take to organise to find participants to get involved in research.

39
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000
Think what Warren's saying is really poignant.

40
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:44,000
You know that first year is challenging you're finding the direction of your research or trying to find a narrow down what it is that you're doing.

41
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000
And so it has a lot of challenges in learning new skills in terms of managing your time,

42
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:58,000
but also learning new research skills and learning to to sit in that uncertainty and how to be productive within it.

43
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:06,000
And we've got some great tips from Catherine and Edward about things you can do in that first year to help you to use Warren's word,

44
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:13,000
organise the mess in that first term and ongoing.

45
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:19,000
I think it's really useful to keep some sort of diary or journal, which you don't have to write much in it.

46
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:29,000
But what I kept note of was what I did each day, because it's very easy to feel like you haven't been doing anything or you haven't achieved anything.

47
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,000
But you can look back and you go. Oh, yeah, of course. I took that training course.

48
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,000
I spent like two hours figuring out how to use this database. Oh, it's the library.

49
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:50,000
Oh, I did this. And so when that kind of little telling of voice in your head says that you haven't done anything,

50
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,000
you can look back and go, oh, well, actually, I've done a lot.

51
00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:01,000
And that  I stopped it from while I started it back during lockdown.

52
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:08,000
And during this time. And it gives me a certain structure and boundaries.

53
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:15,000
The way that I dealt with a lot of those nerves was to just dive headfirst into doing PhD

54
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:24,000
The advice I was given from the start, which I think is is good advice, is to write from the beginning, something you'll hear a lot in humanities

55
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000
in particular, but I think it's important in sciences, too.

56
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:33,000
It's very tempting to think of your first year with your research year, or even of your first month as your research month.

57
00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:40,000
Oh, I've not got anything to write about. What could I possibly do at this stage apart from read things?

58
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:49,000
And to an extent, that's true. But what I found myself doing was writing something in response to a specific bit

59
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000
of primary reading I had done. It didn't really matter what I was writing.

60
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000
And then a couple of weeks in, I met with my supervisors again and we said, Okay. Yep.

61
00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,000
Can you work this up into an extended version of your research proposal, which you've submitted before

62
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000
you started your PhD obviously. And that was basically my way of dealing with the nerves of.

63
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:17,000
writing in response to a prompt that I had set myself. So that's about actually starting the research degree and starting the research.

64
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:24,000
But what about building a community and making Connections with other researchers?

65
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:35,000
Let's hear from Victoria, Warren. Emily and Catherine about their experience of networking and building Connections and building a community.

66
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:44,000
I came from London and I'm sure there'll be PhDs coming from all over the country or internationally even.

67
00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:58,000
But a PhD can be a really isolating. And I know in the first few months I was here, I felt horrible genuinely because I just had no network.

68
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:05,000
I didn't really know anybody. I didn't know other PhDs. And I was feeling like, oh, what have I done?

69
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:12,000
Like, I've just come to a completely different city and I don't know anybody and say it was very

70
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:18,000
you can imagine my joy when I discovered kind of you know things like the Postgrads Society,

71
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,000
which was great in just having that kind of social aspect.

72
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,000
And yeah. And seeking that out. And I, I mean, if there's one thing I would have done,

73
00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:38,000
would have I wish I sought so kind of those kind of social societies and like those social events that the college have hosted,

74
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000
I wish I sort that out earlier than I did.

75
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:48,000
It would have saved me a lot of. Sadness in the beginning and loneliness, I guess.

76
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000
But yet, like, really kind of seek out, seek out having other PhDs around you.

77
00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:04,000
And I found that very helpful throughout. Even now, as I was saying, and I'm finishing, I still find that network so helpful.

78
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,000
Just for your well-being and just to know that we're all in the same boat.

79
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,000
We're all trying to kind of navigate these PhDs and just.

80
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:23,000
Yeah, having that kind of network is. Yeah, I found it so helpful and very beneficial to my well-being.

81
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:29,000
Not enough conversations happen. Just general conversations about how well people are doing or.

82
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,000
Oh, how you work. Or research is getting on and doing.

83
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:40,000
A PhD can be a very, very lonely, solitary place and very difficult for quite a lot of us.

84
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:47,000
I would say go out there, start to speak to other people, make some friends, get involved in things like I do and the doctoral college,

85
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:54,000
get involved in things with Student Guild as a PGR, but do something.

86
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,000
Don't just sit in your office or sit at home and do nothing and just work.

87
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:08,000
You need to. Go find something fun and speak to human beings and also make time for yourself and for connecting other PGR students.

88
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:15,000
That is so important. And since I started, I have been lucky enough to be part of a group of PGR students, too.

89
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,000
And we meet regularly sort of weekly. And although it can be tricky fitting it around all the other stuff

90
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:28,000
It's just been a lifeline and a really great place to share ideas and share worries

91
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,000
and realise that you're not the only one who is experiencing whatever it is you're experiencing.

92
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000
It's such a strange things going throuhg a PhD. Actually amazing at times.

93
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000
And it can be very difficult at times. But when you got people to share it, that really makes a difference.

94
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000
There's also something really important that came out when I was talking to

95
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:53,000
our PGRs about work life balance and setting boundaries and asking for help.

96
00:10:53,000 --> 00:11:03,000
So here's Catherine Victoria Warren. I'm one of our Penryn PGRs, Jamie Cranston talking about those very things.

97
00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:13,000
The thing with doing a PhD because it's. It is, by its essence, quite not nebulous necessarily,

98
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:22,000
but kind of you have to put your own boundaries in and so that might be kind of like, OK, well, I just work.

99
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,000
I work nine to five. I don't work in the evenings. I don't.

100
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:31,000
What work we can it had to be what works for you. Some people might have natural boundaries in their life.

101
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,000
They've got children that need like feeding

102
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:43,000
I've always found my kids quite useful that way, like calls you out of your work and you have to stop.

103
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:50,000
So the diary or journals part of that setting boundaries for yourself.

104
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,000
And of course, you know, I've always said about the PhD, it's not a sprint it's a marathon.

105
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:02,000
So take some time. There's one thing I would have definitely told myself.

106
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,000
Even I think, too, recently is take some time for yourself.

107
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,000
Your PhDis not your life. And you have friends.

108
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:18,000
You have family. And you had yourself to take care of as well and always just keep it in mind.

109
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:24,000
Yes doing a PhD is Great. Yes, it's very satisfying once you've completed it.

110
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:31,000
But don't let it take over your life. Everything in moderation.

111
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:39,000
Don't ever compare yourself to another PhD students work because their work is totally different to what we're doing.

112
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,000
So I did that quite a lot. And I think everybody does, too.

113
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,000
I think even when I'm saying this and whoever's listening to this, you probably will do it.

114
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,000
But don't ever compare yourself. Because it does mean it can put you down.

115
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,000
But you need to bear in mind that it is completely different. They are different timescales.

116
00:12:55,000 --> 00:13:00,000
Everything they do is completely unique to their own work as well.

117
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,000
You will see. So they'll probably looking at your work and also thinking the same.

118
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,000
So try not to compare, I guess, to the other big one is some.

119
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:19,000
And don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's the biggest development that I've had over my PhD at the start.

120
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,000
It's quite easy to get sucked into the feeling of, oh, I must know everything.

121
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:29,000
And often it's off the this imposter syndrome. And you feel the need to to.

122
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:35,000
You may find things out yourself, and obviously part of the PhD is developing those independent skills,

123
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,000
but you're not expected to know absolutely everything.

124
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,000
And so long as you're learning, when you ask somebody for help, obviously getting somebody to do it for you,

125
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,000
sort of defeats the whole purpose of the activity that.

126
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:57,000
One of the best ways to learn stuff and save yourself a lot of time and pain and frustration, it's to ask for help.

127
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:07,000
And that goes from coding, writing and even like simple things like how to organise your reading.

128
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,000
There's lots of people in your departments who have gone through that experience themselves and will usually have some good advice.

129
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:20,000
And it's always good to get different people's advice because sometimes one person's approach isn't a good match for you.

130
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,000
So you might need to try a few different things.

131
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:31,000
I hope some of that has given you an insight into other people's experiences of starting the research degree, the things that they find difficult.

132
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:38,000
And also, if you're finding it intimidating and anxiety producing nerve racking, you're not on your own.

133
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,000
That's a completely normal experience. And as Jamie said, we're here to help.

134
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,000
And please do reach out if you need us. But also enjoy the final thing is just enjoy it.

135
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,000
Enjoy it. And the time goes by so quickly, you don't even realise it.

136
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:59,000
But yet they are going to be some moments. It's not easy, right.

137
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000
I will not sugarcoat this. It is. It is not is.

138
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:15,000
They are. There will be moments where you will want to just cry. But at the end of today, you know, if you have a goal, you will work towards that.

139
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000
And and just make sure you have a great support network of friends and family and supervisors,

140
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000
because that will honestly, that's what got me through as well. That's what helped me.

141
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:33,000
Those kind of moments where I just was like, what am I doing? I didn't think this work is working.

142
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:40,000
And but yeah, I just having all of that kind of adds to that, to the experience of it all.

143
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:46,000
And yeah, hopefully at the end of it you be able to say you've completed it.

144
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,000
And yeah. And you're very proud of the work that you've produced. Thank you so much.

145
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,000
Emily. Catherine. Edward. Victoria Warren and Jamie for

146
00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,000
their insights and their contributions to this week's episode. And that's it for this episode.

147
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,000
don't forget to like, rate and subscribe and join me.

148
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:32,451
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

 

Wellbeing and Self-care with Jayne Hardy

In this episode I talk to Jayne Hardy, author and founder of The Blurt Foundation, about mental health and wellbeing in academia. You can access the show notes and podcast transcript here.

 

PGR experiences of online training and development

In this episode I talk to some of our PGRs about their experiences of online training and development at the University of Exeter, including their advice to academics and Researcher Developers for delivering high quality, online training and development. You can access the show notes here.

 

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Hello and welcome, R, D And The Inbetweens, I'm your host, Kelly Preece,

2
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:32,000
and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researchers development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:38,000
Hello and welcome back to R, D and the In Betweens. Hope you were all well during my hiatus.

4
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:47,000
And I'm back with a really fascinating discussion this episode over the past few months during the COVID nineteen pandemic,

5
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,000
we've all had to learn a new range of skills.

6
00:00:50,000 --> 00:01:00,000
For academics and for teachers, this is involved learning not only new technologies, but new pedagogies and for students, new ways of learning.

7
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000
At the University of Exeter,

8
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:09,000
we've actually had a webinar programme that mirrors our face to face workshop training and development programme for about eight years.

9
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:16,000
So our students are well versed in learning and undertaking training and development online.

10
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,000
And a lot of the discussions we're having now on a sort of local and national level

11
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,000
were talking about the experience of academics and moving into the online environment.

12
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,000
And I don't think there's been enough focus on the student experience and what

13
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000
it's like to learn and what makes good online teaching and specifically for me,

14
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:43,000
good online training and development. So I asked a few of our PGRs to join me to have a discussion about online training and development.

15
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000
What works for them and what it means for them to have a good rounded learning experience.

16
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,000
Online. Is everyone happy to introduce yourself so.

17
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,000
Can we start with Edward? Yeah. Hello. My name is Edward.

18
00:01:55,000 --> 00:02:01,000
I am just about still a postgraduate research student at the University of Exeter.

19
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:09,000
I am in the awkward post submission PhD stage and I've been involved in quite a lot of online stuff.

20
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:17,000
Kelly's been organising over the last few months from writing retreats to research development sessions.

21
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,000
Great, Pauline. Hi, my name is Pauline McGonagle.

22
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:27,000
I am doing a collaborative PhD with the British Library and Exeter and I'm

23
00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:34,000
at the end part of the PhD in that I'm in year five or six.

24
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:39,000
And with a bit of extension now, it'll go on a little bit further.

25
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:47,000
My work is generally archival, etc. And so I'm in a right writing phase at the moment, not being able to access that.

26
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:58,000
But in terms of webinars and online activity with everything its actually been crucial for me because I live in Dover when I do go to the campus.

27
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:05,000
Rarely is for periods of two, three weeks to do something specific or for meetings.

28
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:18,000
So I've been using online and online careers webinar training and the shut up and write sessions which are really, really important to me as well.

29
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,000
Brilliant. Thank you, Jennifer. Hi, I'm Jennifer.

30
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:27,000
I'm a second year PhD student in Biosciences

31
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:38,000
I am working with a fish farm in Anglesey to try and improve the production and welfare standards for fish being farmed.

32
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,000
I have taken part in a couple of things with Kelly from before,

33
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:48,000
and I've also facilitated a couple of sessions with the Research Development Programme,

34
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:58,000
including designing research posters and presentation skills for researchers, which I facilitated both in person and as a webinar.

35
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:03,000
Brilliant. Thank you, Megan. Hi, I'm Megan Maunder

36
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000
I'm about to go into my third year of the PhD in the mathematics department.

37
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:18,000
I am in space for the department and I primarily look at coronal mass ejection, which a large balls of plasma that come off the sun.

38
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:26,000
Broadly, I've been I've done quite a lot of the online research development courses, but also I do a lot of outreach and public engagement.

39
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:35,000
So I've been translating a lot of my face to face sessions to online, which has been a learning curve,

40
00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:44,000
quite a bit about how to try and keep people engaged in the different mediums that also work for me in meeting sessions.

41
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,000
Great. And Philippa. Hi, I'm Philippa.

42
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,000
I am doing a PhD in the theology and Religion Department.

43
00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:03,000
My research looks at plural marriage within fundamentalist Mormon communities, primarily based in the United States.

44
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:11,000
My experience with with with online webinars and teaching and so on extends back several years.

45
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:20,000
So before this pandemic, looking at I've taught classes both online and in person and in a hybrid fashion.

46
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:25,000
And I've also taken part as a student in a number of online classes as well.

47
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:30,000
Actually, one one of my master's classes was was entirely online.

48
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,000
So a bit of experience from both sides of the coin, so to speak. Fantastic.

49
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,000
So I'm going to start with a kind of really basic one,

50
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:49,000
which is what for you as a student are the benefits of having had training and development opportunities available online?

51
00:05:49,000 --> 00:06:01,000
I think for me, as someone who is actually lucky enough in some respects to be in Exeter most of the time and have access to in-person events.

52
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,000
The question is one of flexibility.

53
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:11,000
If you're not able to make it to campus for a given day, you don't feel excluded from the training and opportunities that are going on.

54
00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:15,000
And that's obviously less important to me than it might be for somebody who is based elsewhere.

55
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:25,000
But it's something that I don't think we should underestimate. In my experience, the courses that I've done online were released in blocks.

56
00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:30,000
So it allowed me to again, as Edward was just saying, this element of flexibility.

57
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000
It allowed me to say over the course of a long weekend, for example,

58
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,000
and bash out a few of the the week's worth of material and work through it and then

59
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,000
put it to one side while I focussed on research and then reapproach it again.

60
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:54,000
So the element of flexibility, particularly when the material is present it in in chunks, is very helpful.

61
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:59,000
I think for me, I, I quite often struggle with passive listening.

62
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:06,000
So particularly it comes to like seminars or when someone is giving you information, you don't have to necessarily act it straight away.

63
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,000
Being online kind of enables me to do other things that let me really focus on what I'm listening to,

64
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:16,000
which I know that some people will find that abhorrent, really.

65
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:23,000
I've noticed a particular online seminars and yet things where you're listening passively doing the dishes

66
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,000
or doing a bit of knitting or something actually allows me to take in that information much more easily.

67
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:33,000
And that's not something that would be necessarily you'd be able to do face to face.

68
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,000
People find that quite rude if you sit there and do something else. So listening to them.

69
00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:49,000
On top of what everyone else already said, I think, frankly, the fact that a lot of the webinars are recorded online makes that a lot more inclusive.

70
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:59,000
And like what's been said before. If you missed something, you're able to go back and take an again, which I think is a real benefit,

71
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:08,000
where obviously you can't do that in real life unless you have a Dictaphone or you have permission to record the lecture in another way.

72
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:17,000
Yeah, you can revisit it in a completely different way. Just to add to that, that also extends within the within the seminar as well.

73
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:24,000
So a lot of conversation about going online seems to have been about how can we preserve the benefits

74
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,000
of Face-To-Face teaching in an online environment where we don't have people in the same room.

75
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:36,000
You can look at it the other way as well. I think it's something that that I I think that we should give up and forgot to be doing

76
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,000
in terms of what can online let you do that you're not able to do in face to face.

77
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:48,000
An example of this, it's come from online teaching more than anything for me is that having a PowerPoint document,

78
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:55,000
which you edit live while screen sharing is a heck of a lot faster than working on a whiteboard and screen.

79
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,000
Sharing in general can be really useful for all kinds of teaching purposes if you want

80
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:06,000
to demonstrate something that will go for any research development context as well.

81
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:12,000
So it's it's also about what online teaching can offer the offline can't

82
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:18,000
necessarily thinking in terms of how to preserve what we already have in offline.

83
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:25,000
If that makes sense, that picks up on. One of the really key things for me is that, you know, like Edward said,

84
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:31,000
there is this concern about what we're going to lose from face to face teaching.

85
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:38,000
And certainly one of those main concerns seems to be about peer to peer interaction and community building.

86
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:49,000
So I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your experience of that in the online training you've attended.

87
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,000
Have you felt this sense of loss of being able to interact with your peers?

88
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:57,000
Have you felt that you haven't had the opportunity to build a community?

89
00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:04,000
I've actually found that especially sort of in the time of COVID when webinars have become more common.

90
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:08,000
I've actually found that in the time since lockdown started,

91
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:18,000
I've made more links with people at the University of Exeter than I had in the months between joining the university in September until March.

92
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,000
So so actually, I found that the online forum, especially in smaller groups,

93
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:32,000
has actually led to better friendships, professional relationships with other students.

94
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:37,000
I think it does depend and there is a balance and sometimes things do have to give.

95
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,000
I found that a lot of the stuff webinars i;ve attended where

96
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,000
You have the face to face interaction. It just doesn't work as well.

97
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,000
Like people switching from a mainscreen to breakout rooms

98
00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:54,000
I've found works with some panel events, for example, but I haven't found it as worthwhile l in some traainging events.

99
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,000
I've attended them within sort of my own research,

100
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:06,000
but we have our own little virtual socialising media and that's worked quite well and just giving everyone a time to touch base.

101
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:14,000
And I feel a bit more connected and less isolated. But I think it's very situational dependent, like it doesn't work in all mediums.

102
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:24,000
And it does depend on how the facilitator. I guess it takes that how they choose to go forward with it, to make it inclusive as well.

103
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:34,000
I am going to build on what Megan said. I completely agree that in some situations, breakout rooms work well and sometimes they don't.

104
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:42,000
But what I find really helpful and really inclusive is when the host remembers to say, I'm going to into break room.

105
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:49,000
If you don't want to go, if you don't want to take part in that part of the webinar, you do not have to.

106
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,000
And I think that that's really, really helpful.

107
00:11:52,000 --> 00:12:01,000
I attended a conference online recently that was organised by the South Asia Centre at Exeter, which was international.

108
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:10,000
It went to universities in Pakistan and India, etc., gave a paper over screen online, which I'd never done before.

109
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:17,000
I know for a fact that that would not have been even offered if we hadn't been in the situation we're in now.

110
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000
Yeah. And I think that's been you know, we've had that feedback as well. Of course,

111
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:27,000
we moved our three minute thesis competition online and that enabled distance students

112
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,000
to engage where they wouldn't have been able to before if we were running it on campus.

113
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:37,000
And so, actually, you know, it it has broadened and broaden the net.

114
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,000
And, of course, you know, we know the conference attendance is expensive.

115
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:45,000
We know that PGRs don't get a huge amount of money, if any at all, to attend them.

116
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:52,000
And particularly for travel and accommodation and so running these things online.

117
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,000
It does mean they can be more open and more accessible.

118
00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:03,000
I mean, we shouldn't just assume that the online is automatically accessible and inclusive.

119
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:08,000
There are some issues that we might be had to pick up on those. We're gonna take a sidestep for a minute.

120
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:17,000
And I want to know who did both sides of this. But first of all, I want to know what in your experience as a student,

121
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:25,000
having been to lots of different online and training and conferences and groups and all sorts of things.

122
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,000
What's been really good practise for you from the take from the teacher, the person delivering what?

123
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,000
What kind of behaviours or approaches to be seen where you've gone?

124
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:38,000
Yes, it's actually really brilliant for me. I think the big one is having a clear agenda.

125
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:48,000
Like, I like to know what's going on, a way where my active participation is required and where it's a bit more passive.

126
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:55,000
The other thing I think is important. I've actually yet to see is people providing the slides in a PDF format beforehand.

127
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,000
So let's screen readers don't work with just like a standard zoom screen.

128
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,000
And that could be difficult for a lot of people. But I think also for me, I sometimes have problems like following along in person.

129
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,000
I know we've discussed the kind of.

130
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:15,000
Use the time that when you want to look things up, but that's not always practical or possible for something you do so want to engage in,

131
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:22,000
but you're not quite able to fully able and you don't fully able to do it in that day.

132
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:27,000
So I think definitely good practise is the agenda, but also, you know, providing resources beforehand,

133
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:33,000
that means people can follow along at their pace rather than just assume that everyone's got a great Internet connection,

134
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:40,000
can move along as quickly as perhaps the person trained to. If they try to condense something into quite short space of time,

135
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:48,000
I think one of the main things that I've seen that I think could benefit a lot of online sessions are having House rules at the start.

136
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:59,000
So just in the first five minutes, ten minutes, either verbally saying or having up on the screen that reminding people that you're an adult,

137
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:04,000
you're your to go to the bathroom when you want to. You don't have to ask permission. You don't have to have your camera on.

138
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:10,000
You don't have to speak if you don't want to. And just making it very clear the expectations from the session.

139
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:17,000
So if it is an engaging session, then please try and engage and speak up where you feel comfortable.

140
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:24,000
But it's not necessary. Those are the main things I've really, really appreciated,

141
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:32,000
as well as having scheduled breaks and just checking in on people and saying, you know, I've covered the first section.

142
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:38,000
I was going to go into the second section before a break. But if people want a break night, that's fine.

143
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:46,000
So constantly adapting your time management, because I've taken a couple of the facilitators, a couple of webinars,

144
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:55,000
and I don't realise how quickly I talk or how difficult it is when you don't have people in front of you.

145
00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:03,000
I kind of sort of fly fine. It's been twenty five minutes and you've gone through all your material and you're supposed to be talking for an hour.

146
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:12,000
But just saying, you know, we can now have fifteen minutes to just chat or you can log off or just adapting as you go and constantly keeping

147
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:19,000
the group up to date with where you are as a presenter and making sure that someone can jump in and say,

148
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:26,000
you know, please slow down or yeah, we've gone over this or anything like that.

149
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:35,000
Yeah, I think that adaptability and being responsive is it's even more important than it is in a Face-To-Face environment.

150
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:42,000
One of the best training that I attended very recently was an online.

151
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:49,000
a writing day, actually. And it was outside Exeter, as it turned out, it was another consortium that includes me whenever they do things.

152
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,000
But one of the best things they did was send preparation materials out in advance.

153
00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:02,000
And even though it was an online retreat for writing, it gave us some ideas about prepare by doing the following.

154
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,000
The timings will be like this. Let us know if there is.

155
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:10,000
And it just really made me think about how to make the most out of the day in advance.

156
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,000
And I think it paid off more or seemed to be more so more productive because

157
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,000
there was a lot of thought had gone in to helping you to prepare and so on.

158
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:27,000
So I think all of the things that you've said, including the the rules and host rules so that everyone feels they know what you know,

159
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:33,000
what's expected, etc., is very beneficial because it's the sort of thing you would do in real life.

160
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,000
You know, when you go into a room, you have whether it's pointed at the fire exits or whatever it might be,

161
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:43,000
you're doing something that's practical and taking note of the environment, just sitting.

162
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:50,000
And, of course, you sitting behind a mike and you don't know anybody's personal circumstances or if they've got a,

163
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:58,000
you know, a small child in the background or whatever it might be. But the point is that a little bit of prep in advance makes people more.

164
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:04,000
I think what it actually makes them more proactive and engaged when they take part as well.

165
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,000
And so a lot of it's interesting that a lot of the things that you've raised so

166
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000
far about good practise have actually been more kind of like organisational,

167
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,000
I guess, about how you set out the virtual space rather than kind of content delivery.

168
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:28,000
So I wanted to know about kind of how how good online teachers are making content, engaging for you and making interesting.

169
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:38,000
I think one of the main things for me is when a session has been scheduled for two hours and it has got like

170
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:46,000
one and a half hour mark and that person's done and they don't try and just waffle on the next half an hour.

171
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:52,000
I think that that is really important. And I'm not saying this doesn't happen a lot in person.

172
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000
I do think that when you've been scheduled for a set amount of time,

173
00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:01,000
there is a certain amount of pressure to just keep talking and keep delivering, which isn't going to engage anyone.

174
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,000
And it's probably going to make people switch off more than anything else.

175
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,000
So I think that that's really important to keep in mind,

176
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:17,000
that whether you're a professor and you've been teaching for years and years or whether you're going to be facilitating a webinar to

177
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:26,000
just keep in mind that if you feel like you're waffling and it's likely that someone people are not engaged or not concentrating,

178
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000
and it's way better to get your point across concisely,

179
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:38,000
but not rush through and just make sure that people are constantly are trying to try to make

180
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:45,000
sure that people can be engaged throughout online teaching recognises the differences,

181
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,000
I think, between it and traditional Face-To-Face teaching.

182
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:56,000
So a lot of a lot of the really good zoom sessions I've been to, for example,

183
00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:04,000
have been hosted by people who have taken the time to actually investigate how the software works and what you can do with it.

184
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,000
I mean, let's face it,

185
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:12,000
we've all kind of very excited at the idea of using the thumbs up to react button or the raise your hand button or things like that.

186
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:25,000
Sounds silly, but I mean, it's true. But that and things like screen sharing when used, well, let you do things you can't do with Face-To-Face.

187
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:31,000
And that can help with both clarity for content and also think engagement as well,

188
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:41,000
so that some of the best examples that I've seen have been where people have used quite an interactive format and also utilised universal design.

189
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:50,000
So someone mentioned earlier about making sure that PowerPoint slides are distributed in advance to enable people to access screen readers and so on.

190
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:59,000
But also, I think, making things interactive, not just having somebody talk to the group and then wait for questions at the end,

191
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,000
pausing at different intervals and asking for questions, utilising the chat function.

192
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:09,000
So questions can go into the chat function. And having either the presentation.

193
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:16,000
Again, it depends on the size of the group. But it's either either the presenter or designated person who's monitoring the chat.

194
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:23,000
You can sort of notify the presenter that a relevant question is in the chat, which should probably be addressed at that point.

195
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,000
And then the presenter can say. What's your question?

196
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,000
And then it can then form part of a conversation.

197
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:43,000
But it's also the presenter needs to recognise at what stage too many people in the group means that certain things won't work efficiently.

198
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:47,000
So there is an element where the person who's presenting needs to have a little

199
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:54,000
bit of knowledge about what groups work best in what formats and and how intimate.

200
00:21:54,000 --> 00:22:00,000
You can't have an interactive session with two hundred people because everyone is just constantly going to talk over one another.

201
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,000
But in a group of six or seven, that might be more appropriate.

202
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:12,000
Yeah, I just kind of want to build on what Ed said about making sure you understand the functionality of your software,

203
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000
but also then talking to your participants about their functionality.

204
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:24,000
So this is sort of a personal experience, but some friends and I did a pub quiz, as did everyone, during the lockdown.

205
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:32,000
We set up around based on a popular TV game show where you had to guess where certain things were placed.

206
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:39,000
And I assumed it would work fine for everyone. Turns out it was only fine for people using Zoom on a laptop if they were trying to use it on a tablet.

207
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:44,000
Which did the touchscreen wouldn't allow them to press the button properly.

208
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:51,000
So I think that getting to know your software but also getting to know how that translates to different devices than your participants.

209
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:57,000
If this is something you can do in advance, it's definitely good practise to make sure that you're inclusive and accessible and just

210
00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:02,000
beforehand asking for accessibility needs like do you need me to send the resources in advance?

211
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:09,000
You can have a screen reader making sure the agenda's clear, making sure you set up breaks with your content.

212
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,000
clearly accessible for people to be able to digest that in their own time.

213
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:21,000
Yeah, that's certainly something that we've encountered over the years in delivering I mean, previously through Skype for business is that,

214
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:31,000
you know, some very simple things, like depending on whether somebody is on a Mac or a Windows computer and the interface looks different.

215
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:39,000
And so, you know, being able to give somebody guidance and understand how different functionality works within a different operating system, you know,

216
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,000
before like you say, Mac,

217
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:49,000
and before you get into access on different devices and different versions of the software on different devices have different functionality.

218
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:56,000
And if you're using a lot of that kind of. Interactive functionality.

219
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:05,000
Then you need to be aware of how that may or may not work on all devices and therefore be able to offer alternative versions.

220
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,000
Let's talk a little bit about interactive functionality.

221
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:15,000
So thinking about all of the different systems that over the course of the past few months we've all become familiar with,

222
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:22,000
everything's got variations on going to similar functionality, some of which is is a bit more flashy than others.

223
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:30,000
What's your kind of your feeling about some of the interactive tools built into these systems?

224
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:37,000
So we've had the chat box mentioned, we've had breakout rooms mentioned, but you can also have polls and white boards.

225
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:46,000
And how how do you feel about these tools? And how kind of engaging do you find them?

226
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:51,000
Right. If everyone knows how they work. And it is the host's responsibility to explain.

227
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,000
I've seen I'm guilty of this myself,

228
00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:01,000
actually having started a poll and then not really explained it and then not had any engagement with because people didn't know it was there.

229
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:08,000
So I think that they will really useful and they replace a lot of the things that universities have spent a lot of money on in recent years.

230
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:16,000
And, you know, in. In-person voting handsets, for example, in face to face teaching.

231
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,000
But it's the responsibility of the presenter to deliver that session, to explain quite clearly,

232
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:27,000
clearly this new technology or something, we're not familiar with how it works.

233
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000
Yeah, I think broadly they can be used well. But as long as they're used

234
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Meaningfully people aren't just using them because they can.

235
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:44,000
And I think even in face to face teaching, you see a lot of people using it so that they can take off their sort of digital box.

236
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,000
I think broadly they work well if they are used to add to meaningful discussion.

237
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000
But sometimes I feel in some of the courses I've been in, it's it's been a bit pointless.

238
00:25:53,000 --> 00:26:00,000
I don't really feel like it's achieved anything or contributed to the session. Like I find sometimes the incessant polling a bit much.

239
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:06,000
As we move to online need to consider are we doing this for the sake of doing it that worked

240
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,000
Face to face or are we doing this? It's gonna give us something meaningful. Yeah.

241
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:18,000
And that's a really important issue for me as somebody who's.

242
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:23,000
Kind of been engaging with them, researching blended learning for some time, is it?

243
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:34,000
It's actually about what the tools can actually add. To the learning into the session and actually, you know, over the.

244
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000
I mean, this is the sort of fifth year that I've been doing online teaching.

245
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:47,000
It's been growing every year. And actually the tool that fundamentally, I think has had the most impact in online teaching is the chat box.

246
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:54,000
It's possibly the simplest tool in there. But like, I can't remember, I think it was Philippa was it Philippa that was saying, you know,

247
00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:02,000
you can continue conversation and engagement and all those sorts of things throughout the session.

248
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:09,000
And that's where the peer learning can happen. So we've talked about the good.

249
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,000
It's probably about time we talked about the bad.

250
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:20,000
So what in your experience of online training, what have you seen people do that hasn't been that great or hasn't been that, shall we say?

251
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:33,000
Isn't that engaging for you? So I did a I guess it was a full day's session with an external company and I don't want to name and shame, but broadly,

252
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:40,000
they expected you to be plugged in if your video on audio on the whole day, which was just exhausting for me.

253
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,000
And I think also, you know,

254
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:50,000
we it's not a natural thing to do when you go and do these things face to face your aren;t staring at someone's face all day and they scheduled in breaks.

255
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,000
Just great. And I was like, oh, you know, go and take five minutes and go and get a cup of tea.

256
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,000
That's exactly what I did. And I came back that and because at that point.

257
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:05,000
So I went to get a cup of tea because at that point when I came back, it was just listening and it was passive.

258
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,000
I went to drink my cup of tea and he literally stopped it. Oh, I hope you're enjoying that tea Megan

259
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000
And I was put out because I know no one. I don't really see why.

260
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,000
I mean, I need my camera on right now. But number two, I'm literally just doing what you said.

261
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,000
You know, I went to get my cup of tea and I think particularly during lockdown as well.

262
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,000
Not something I've experienced that other students who've done some external

263
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,000
training said that at one point they were told to go outside and have a walk,

264
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:34,000
which I thought was ridiculous. And also so.

265
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,000
It was ridiculous, but also it wasn't very inclusive because they didn't know who at that point was self isolating, who was shielding.

266
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,000
So how could they talk about their experiences of a walk if they couldn't go outside?

267
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:52,000
I think broadly, for me, the bad practise I've seen is think not thinking about people's inclusive situations.

268
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:57,000
You know, as we've already mentioned, people might have children, might have pets, people away from home.

269
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,000
People have lives. So I think the requirement to be switched on for a whole day is too much.

270
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:08,000
But also just having respect, the people are not going to be just concentrating on you for the whole period.

271
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,000
I was going about that, as we discussed in the past. Kelly Zoom fatigue is a thing.

272
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:21,000
And some of the. Less successful events I've been to over zoom are the ones that don't acknowledge that.

273
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:28,000
To come back to what was what was just said. The ones that require video to be on ones which which is quite easy to do.

274
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:37,000
This is a facilitator, I think, to. Expects or to hope for the same.

275
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:45,000
Indicators of engagement that you might get in a face to face meeting, for example.

276
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:53,000
Expectant looks up at the camera in front of in front of all the audience is not something you can realistically ever get in a an online environment.

277
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,000
Face to face.

278
00:29:54,000 --> 00:30:02,000
It's you know, if you've got an audience following you, that can be really quite exciting as it is in the delivery of this kind of content.

279
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:10,000
So if you go into an online session expecting exactly the same behaviours from an audience who could be in a number of different places,

280
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,000
have any number of different things in the room with them,

281
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:23,000
haven't necessarily definitely haven't come to that place where you all fall out of their house slash office slash.

282
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:31,000
I don't know private island. They will then you're you're you're setting yourself up effectively to mismanage, essentially.

283
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,000
I'm basically going to echo what has already been said.

284
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:43,000
But two things that are real negatives for me are when it seems to be a session session's sake,

285
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:50,000
which is something that I've I've signed up to a series of webinars online.

286
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:58,000
And the last one or one of the middle ones is just them of talking at you.

287
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:09,000
And it felt very pointlee. That's something that I phrase that I saw on Twitter, which I would really like to echo, is we aren't remote working from home.

288
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000
We are living at work. We are living at the gym.

289
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:22,000
And for so many people, you are literally living in one single room and it could be at the top of a 10 storey block.

290
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000
It could be that you have children or pets or whatever else.

291
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:32,000
And so not being inclusive, it is so easy nowadays to say or take things at your own pace.

292
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:39,000
The pace of life right now is slowed down massively, at least for me, because I've not been able to come to the lab.

293
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:46,000
So it's very much been about what can I do for myself and other people when I'm interacting with them online?

294
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,000
What can I do to make sure that they're engaged and happy?

295
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Because otherwise there's just no point to trying to force people to take part in polls or, you know, going on walks or one of them.

296
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000
I had to build a really a tower as tall as I could.

297
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:11,000
Out of the things in my room. And I was thinking, I've been sitting, staring at someone since nine o'clock this morning it is now have past three.

298
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,000
This could have ended by now. You've given me the worthwhile information, which I appreciate.

299
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:23,000
But these like team building things when you if you want to take part in them, that's great.

300
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,000
But forcing people to take part is something that does.

301
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:34,000
It makes me not want to take part in any webinar type things again.

302
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:42,000
Yeah, I think that's that's really powerful. And like, I think I think it was you that said earlier, Jennifer, like, you know.

303
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:48,000
If you don't, it's what you do face to face, if it's come to an end and it's reach a natural end.

304
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,000
Do not drag it out with the absolute worst thing.

305
00:32:53,000 --> 00:33:01,000
But you can do nothing, particularly in an online environment, because that fatigue of staring at the screen is very real.

306
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:10,000
So it's kind of just going off the back of that. So I've seen it where materials have been distributed in advance of a session.

307
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,000
And I'm not talking about a week in advance. I'm talking about just a few hours before the session.

308
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:24,000
And those materials being completely inaccurate. And they're not the same version of the PowerPoint, for example, that are shown on the screen.

309
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:31,000
And it's quite clear that whoever is presenting the session and I'm actually the example I'm thinking of is an external.

310
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,000
But they they they distributed a PowerPoint presentation,

311
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:42,000
which at either been adapted from something else or they'd in the in the hours between distributing it and actually presenting,

312
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,000
they'd made a lot of changes to the presentation.

313
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:54,000
And it just it it was frustrating as as a participant to have this information that wasn't relevant because I'm dyslexic and dyspraxic

314
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,000
So I can't really deal very well with things that are just on the screen.

315
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:04,000
So I like to have my materials in advance, print them out, and then I can make notes as the presentation is happening.

316
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,000
Well, if those PowerPoint slides have been changed around in order, well,

317
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,000
some of them have been added or taken away or the the verbiage has been changed.

318
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,000
It makes it incredibly difficult for me to stay engaged.

319
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:25,000
So I think it's very important that that people who are leading sessions have very relevant information and stuff that they're going to cover.

320
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:32,000
Don't just send information for the sake of sending things. Don't send six journal articles for people to read.

321
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:39,000
If realistically, people aren't going to be able to read that many articles and there's only room for discussion discussing one of them,

322
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,000
because we've all been there where we've been to an in-person seminar where the

323
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,000
material you're given to discuss in that seminar is much more than can be discussed.

324
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:53,000
So who aren't just leaves us feeling a little bit annoyed that they've read all of this extra

325
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,000
stuff when they that there are more important things they could have done with that time.

326
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:06,000
So I think it's about making sure that the information that's distributed as relevant is up to date and is correct as it goes life.

327
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:16,000
And also that any reading and prep that participants need to do in advance is kept to a minimum and a manageable amount.

328
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Are there any other things that you've seen or heard people do when you've gone?

329
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Actually, that's really off-putting for me. As a participant, it's one of the one of the technical gremlins that we will get, I think.

330
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,000
But when feedback is there and not acknowledged by the by the host, by feedback,

331
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,000
I mean, the kind of thing, thing, thing, thing, thing that happens opens up.

332
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:55,000
So when someone is in any way bounces around different microphones and gets picked up and distorted when that's dealt with quickly and efficiently.

333
00:35:55,000 --> 00:36:00,000
That's why asking other people to mute themselves or just checking it out one by one.

334
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,000
That's great.

335
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:09,000
When it doesn't is one of the most infuriating things I think we've ever come across in zoom meetings I hope people will agree with me on that.

336
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,000
The feedback  can be the bane of the presenters life sometimes. So another thing which is,

337
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:22,000
is kind of it's a bit of an elephant in the room in that it's all of this sort of presupposes that people have good access to it,

338
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:31,000
to access to a good Internet connexion. And some of the issues with feedback and poor quality can sometimes be due to the fact that someone is using

339
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:37,000
a poor Internet connection or there might be several people trying to work from home at the same time.

340
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:47,000
And I actually had a session that I was part of a few weeks ago when the person he was presenting kept having to come,

341
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,000
come off the call and reconnect because their Internet was so strained.

342
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,000
And so I think not. Not so putting the onus on the people who are presenting.

343
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000
But I think there's also a duty from, you know, thinking about this is a bigger picture from this.

344
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:09,000
You know, we're all going through this global pandemic. And institutions need to be cognisant of what the means of their students in that, you know,

345
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:16,000
some students might not be able to afford the tools they need in order to do what we're doing right now.

346
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:22,000
You know, some some students may not have access to a decent computer. They might not have access to a decent Internet connection.

347
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,000
And it's about institutions providing that for them as.

348
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:33,000
As someone who has got learning differences, I get disabled students allowance.

349
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:38,000
And once upon a time, and because I've been a perpetual student once upon a time,

350
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:45,000
disabled students allowance used to pay for your Internet if you had certain disabilities.

351
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:51,000
But that doesn't happen anymore because it's expected that everybody has access to good Internet and not everybody can afford that.

352
00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:00,000
Some students are living hand-to-mouth and will have previously been relying on going into the university every day and using university resources,

353
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:10,000
including good Internet connections. So suddenly being thrown into this sort of lockdown scenario, people,

354
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:16,000
if I've heard of people tethering their phones to their computers to use their phone data,

355
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,000
then running out of that, not having access, you know,

356
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:27,000
you can't just go down to Starbucks or or insert coffee shop of your choice in order to access Internet.

357
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,000
And so it can be a real strain for a lot of people.

358
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:37,000
And I think that needs to be acknowledged at sort of a DSA sort of government level, but also institutional levels as well.

359
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:43,000
And I think you're actually doing a pretty good job at making sure that they are providing for students who have those needs.

360
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,000
But I'm not sure that every institution is doing such a great job.

361
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:57,000
Yeah, and I I think that that assumption of having a computer and having Internet access and is.

362
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:04,000
Is really prevalent. And we've had those conversations with academics trying to teach undergraduates of kind of like.

363
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:10,000
But we actually can't assume a certain mode or method of access.

364
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,000
Even though we think of these things as being ubiquitous, we think that everybody's got them.

365
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:21,000
But I mean, particularly one of the things that I know that we've had to deal with as researcher

366
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,000
development over the years is that we've got students all over the world.

367
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,000
So we've had to deal with time differences and we've had to deal with.

368
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:37,000
You know, I remember somebody who was really struggled with the PowerPoint slides.

369
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,000
They just wouldn't load for them.

370
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:45,000
And it's because they were in a remote area of Thailand and they just did not have a good enough quality Internet connection.

371
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,000
We had quite a lot of.

372
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:57,000
Quite a lot of students who were abroad who were primarily accessing recordings because they just don't have the bandwidth to watch something live

373
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,000
And so I think that's also where not just that recognition and that stepping up of

374
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:07,000
institutions are saying you can't just assume these things are accessible and are ubiquitous,

375
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:14,000
but also that. You need to provide alternatives for people in different situations.

376
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:21,000
There is also another assumption at times, and one which I suppose I feel includes me and a sense,

377
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:29,000
and it is my responsibility to, I suppose, train myself to keep up with and to learn new ideas as it comes along.

378
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:34,000
But it's one of the things I've found very difficult, and it intimidates me to some extent.

379
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:43,000
And of course, I've learnt an awful lot in recent times that I probably wouldn't have been forced to do so if we hadn't been in this situation.

380
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:50,000
However. I think that there is an assumption of skill and a policy sometimes where, what,

381
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,000
some one off or a couple of the worst sessions I've been in is where and polls come in to this

382
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:02,000
That's where polls have been used. And I would say probably to four questionable means whether they were useful or not.

383
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:11,000
And I have had difficulty even managing to keep up with the speed at which their responses were expected and, you know, felt really uncomfortable.

384
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:17,000
And I couldn't keep up with that. I mean, it's not just because I'm in that particular age group.

385
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,000
I'm trying to deal with new things that I'm finding difficult.

386
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,000
It's there is an assumption of knowledge sometimes, which is quite difficult to keep up with.

387
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:36,000
I mean, I forced myself to do that. But if to deliver webinars, et cetera, I'm one of the things which has still kept me from getting more involved,

388
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:46,000
as I'm slightly afraid of having to deal with other people's I.T. difficulties and their remote connections that I could barely deal with my own.

389
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:51,000
You're right, Pauline. And I think that we can't meet again. We can't make that assumption based on.

390
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,000
There are lots of people who, you know,

391
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:03,000
have grown up with technology that are still that still don't have a high level of technical experience or technical literacy and.

392
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:11,000
And again, it's one of those really challenging assumptions, and so it's making sure that whether the person is an attendee or presenter,

393
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,000
that they have all of the all of the support that they need.

394
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000
And certainly, I mean, in terms of the way we run our our kind of formal webinars,

395
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:28,000
as we always have an administrator who deals with the technical kind of troubleshooting issues, part of that.

396
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,000
So that presenter can focus on just that presenting rather than dealing with technical issues.

397
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:40,000
But it also usually means that it's someone that's more experienced with the system and who has the

398
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:46,000
experience and the knowledge to to answer those questions and to do that troubleshooting people.

399
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:51,000
And it doesn't mean we can always answer everyone's problems. We certainly cannot.

400
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:57,000
But. That seems to be a lot coming out that about.

401
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:02,000
Inclusivity And are our assumptions around?

402
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:08,000
People's set up and how people are accessing things. And.

403
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,000
And how people want to engage, I guess, and particularly where, you know, Meghan,

404
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:17,000
you talked about people expecting you to have your camera on or expecting you to go.

405
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,000
You know, people saying, is it going to break out rooms?

406
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,000
Actually, we're making a lot of assumptions there about how people want to engage, but also how people want to learn.

407
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:36,000
You know, we we recognise that people learn differently. And so and yet we're not necessarily giving people the opportunity to learn differently.

408
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,000
Yeah, I just wanted to really support and echo what you were saying in that I don't think the way

409
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:47,000
a lot of people have moved things to online is inclusive for everyone's learning style.

410
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:54,000
I'm happy to sit and read, but I'm also happy to sit and listen. Asked me to do both at the same time, and I really struggle with that.

411
00:43:54,000 --> 00:44:04,000
And I think that regardless of whether your neurotypical you struggle with visuospatial or other types of learning,

412
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:08,000
providing multiple resources and doing things at a slower pace is help with that.

413
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:13,000
But yet, like way in the move to online, I think we forget that not everyone bends in the same way.

414
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:19,000
And I think, Ticky. So we've made great strides in how to make our lectures more inclusive and accessible.

415
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:25,000
But now we've kind of looked online. I feel like a lot of the physical mechanisms we put in place and are no longer there.

416
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:31,000
Yeah. And it's a whole new set of considerations. I actually and I link in the show notes.

417
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:41,000
I, I did the accessibility of e-learning course at the Open University just as it was a free online course and.

418
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:48,000
Was it's largely about kind of static. So, you know, asynchronous online resources.

419
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:57,000
But nonetheless, it was really interesting to look at some of the some of the commentary around some really specific

420
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,000
technical issues around things like screen readers and some of these things that we've talked about today,

421
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:12,000
but also actually the fundamental pedagogical imperative of, regardless of accessibility,

422
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:20,000
and inclusivity, we should be providing things in multiple formats and engagement in in multiple ways.

423
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,000
Because because of that very thing. Because people learn differently.

424
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:33,000
And so we should be providing things in a way that gives people the option of how to engage an in a way that's going to help them learn.

425
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:43,000
I think that people presenting online should be encouraged to, like others have said, send out material beforehand,

426
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:53,000
but then not be put off when someone would like access material and might like access the recording afterwards,

427
00:45:53,000 --> 00:46:02,000
then doesn't necessarily they're either not able to attend the actual session or for whatever reason they can engage with webinars.

428
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:08,000
I think that that means we normalise a bit more. Because for me, I need to have something like hammered into me.

429
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:15,000
I need to read it loads, write it, hear it. And so for me, getting the materials beforehand would help.

430
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,000
Engaging with material during and after that would all be great.

431
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:27,000
I know for some webinars, I've not been able to I've not been able to attend them in person.

432
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,000
I've asked for the materials anyway. And some people have been great and said, yes, of course.

433
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:36,000
Like, that's such a shame that you can't engage. But I'll send you the slides or the notes later.

434
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:43,000
And some people said, well, no, if you're not able to come and engage in in person, in inverted commas,

435
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:49,000
if you're not able to attend the back more than no, I'm not giving you my material, which is understandable.

436
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:55,000
But I do think that it would be really nice if we could be a little bit more open in sharing our best practise.

437
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:04,000
If there are people listening to this who are new to delivering online. What's the one thing you want them to bear in mind?

438
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:15,000
Go slower than you think, you need to take it and be kind both to yourself and to the people in the seminar with you.

439
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Yes, that's I think that that's taking it slower. It's really, really important because, like somebody said earlier, your.

440
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:32,000
All of the things that all of the communicative tools that someone read off you in person and that you would read off a screen are out of the window.

441
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:40,000
And so. I find I get a lot more tired doing online teaching because I'm doing an awful lot more

442
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:47,000
with my voice than I would normally to communicate and to make things more engaging.

443
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:56,000
Accessibility, utilising universal design. I'm sort of almost horrified at the number of people who still don't do this.

444
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:04,000
And especially considering that providing resources for people who have registered learning

445
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:11,000
differences or physical disabilities that might prevent them from engaging in certain ways.

446
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:16,000
The fact that some people are still not providing accessible resources.

447
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:26,000
So it kind of shocks me in the year 2020. So I think just making sure that things are presented in different formats are accessible to those.

448
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:35,000
And and even just emailing participants in advance and saying, what is that that I can do to make this session more accessible to your needs?

449
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:41,000
And that the person leading the session doesn't need to know what the needs of the people are at that point.

450
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:48,000
They don't need to be a member of the university who might get a copy if their learning.

451
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:55,000
So what's the cool that they're the document that they get that that details

452
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,000
what resources individuals need to put them on an equal par with their peers.

453
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:05,000
But just emailing participants and saying, what is it that I can do to make this session more accessible to you?

454
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:12,000
And then people can email and say power points in advance or please put on screen captions,

455
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,000
or would it be possible to have a transcript produced afterwards?

456
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:24,000
Those sorts of things would help a lot of people. I would say attend other online sessions.

457
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,000
I'm down what you find helpful.

458
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:37,000
What you didn't and then try and learn from that because it's such an on such a weird world being online and trying to keep people engaged.

459
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:47,000
And so the more experience you have of being a participant, the better informed you will be trying to create sections that will be engaging.

460
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:56,000
And there just one other thing that I wanted to see, which sort of links back to what we were saying about how amazing some webinars are and how we've

461
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:02,000
been able to attend some of the world conferences that we otherwise wouldn't be able to attend.

462
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:11,000
Also, being inclusive of industry or your non institutional partners.

463
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:18,000
That's something really important to keep in mind as well. Yeah, just to kind of echo what's been said already, I think.

464
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000
Definitely be aware of your pace. Don't be afraid to take things more slowly.

465
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,000
That is something I am very guilty of. And I have a habit of speaking quite quickly.

466
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:30,000
So I very much, if I'm leading a session,

467
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:39,000
remind people that I'm pretty comfortable with them asking me to repeat something, say something slower, go over concepts.

468
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,000
But I think more broadly as well as is really focussing on the accessibility and inclusivity.

469
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:50,000
So making sure that you've got a variety of resources accessible to as many different people as you can think of,

470
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,000
but also echoing what's being said area,

471
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:59,000
making sure that if this is something you could do in advance, get in touch of people and check, that they can have everything catered for.

472
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:06,000
And particularly as a participant who potentially hasn't been involved in this before, they may not even know what to ask for.

473
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:12,000
So making sure that you you get that clear agenda and structure of what you plan to do and what is expected,

474
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:18,000
what the House rules are gives people an idea of what they may need from you as well.

475
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,000
I think we're going to draw it to a close. That.

476
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:32,000
Thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me this afternoon and offering your your insights into your experience as.

477
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:39,000
As students, as the recipients of online training and development. And that's it for this episode, a long one.

478
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:44,000
I know, but I think incredibly valuable with some really important discussions.

479
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:55,000
And I was really. Heartened to hear coming through that that drive of accessibility, an inclusivity because.

480
00:51:55,000 --> 00:52:00,000
My own reflections during this period have been, yes, technology can be a leveller.

481
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,000
But we can't just assume that because we've moved something online, it's more accessible and more inclusive.

482
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,000
There's still a lot of work to be done. And that's it for this episode.

483
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,000
Difficult to, like, rare and subscribe and join me.

484
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:41,610
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.

 

My computer took a break, and now so am I

Music credit: Happy Boy Theme Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

 

Podcast transcript

 

1
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,000
Hello and welcome to R, D and the in betweens.

2
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:32,000
I'm your host, Kelly Preece, and every fortnight I talk to a different guest about researches, development and everything in between.

3
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:40,000
Hi, everyone. I come to you this episode with an apology. Unfortunately, there's no new episode of R, D and the in betweens this week.

4
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:45,000
If you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that about a week ago, my computer got the blue screen of death.

5
00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:49,000
And unfortunately, I lost my latest recording for the podcast.

6
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:56,000
I'm also about to take a couple of weeks hiatus, so I'm going on annual leave for the next two weeks.

7
00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:01,000
And after some careful thought, I decided that I would take a break from the podcast as well.

8
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:08,000
Given how stressful and manic the past few months have been, I could really do with some time to drstress and decompress.

9
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:15,000
But I wanted to take this opportunity to give you a little a little teaser of what's coming up on R, D and in the In Betweens.

10
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,000
I've already recorded an episode of the podcast this week about online training,

11
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:26,000
and development talking to a group of our PGRs about their experience as students of online training and development.

12
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:34,000
There's been so much focus recently on how difficult it's been for staff to get things online during COVID

13
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,000
I want to take a step back and actually think about.

14
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:46,000
What that's been like for the students and some of the benefits and the flexibility of developing delivering this kind of content online.

15
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,000
I've also planning to talk to the leaders of our BME network at the University of Exeter

16
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:56,000
about the advocacy and the work that they've been doing over the past few years to

17
00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,000
really take us to becoming an anti-racist university and the way in which the university

18
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:07,000
has really got on board and started to make tangible changes in the past few months.

19
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000
I'm also planning some special episodes for the start of term.

20
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:18,000
I've got a compilation episode of advice from our researchers and staff about starting a research degree.

21
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:26,000
And I'm also gonna talk to our student union or at Exeter to the Students Guild and V.P. for Postgraduates and president,

22
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:36,000
both of whom are postgraduate researchers and have been really active in the postgraduate research community and advocacy for our PGR students.

23
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000
So we got some great stuff coming up, and I hope you'll bear with me whilst I take my little holiday.

24
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000
But we'll be back on the twenty sixth of August, and that's it for this episode.

25
00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,000
Don't forget to like, rare and subscribe and join me.

26
00:02:49,000 --> 00:03:15,701
Next time we'll be talking to somebody else about researchers development and everything in between.